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| DATE | 2023-05-14 |
| FROM | Ruben Safir
|
| SUBJECT | Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
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Newsgroups: sci.bio.paleontology
Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 13:27:08 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: Human & ape evolution
From: Peter Nyikos
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Xref: panix sci.bio.paleontology:77288
You did so well against Marc here that he has been letting JTEM do all the =
talking since you posted this.
I told Marc that I am boycotting JTEM until one or both of them deals with =
a majority of the points=20
I make in my last reply to him.=20
On Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 12:46:49=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4, oot...-at-hot.ee wrot=
e:
> On Wednesday, 10 May 2023 at 14:50:23 UTC+3, marc verhaegen wrote:=20
>=20
> > - "Lineage-specific expansions of retroviral insertions within the geno=
mes of African great apes, but not humans and orangutans" CT Yohn cs 2005 P=
LoS Biol.3:e110 10.1371/journal.pbio.0030110=20
> >
> From the cited by you article ...=20
>=20
> "First, there is virtually no overlap (less than 4%) between the location=
of insertions among chimpanzee, gorilla, macaque, and baboon, making it un=
likely that endogenous copies existed in a common ancestor and then became =
subsequently deleted in the human lineage and orangutan lineage. Second, th=
e PTERV1 phylogenetic tree is inconsistent with the generally accepted spec=
ies tree for primates, suggesting a horizontal transmission as opposed to a=
vertical transmission from a common ape ancestor."=20
Yes, I think horizontal transmission is far more common in mammals than mos=
t
phylogenetic theorists think it is. Retroviruses aren't the only culprits; =
bornaviruses are=20
also suspected of inserting their genes in the genomes of many animals, inc=
luding us and
some birds.
> ... and ...=20
>=20
> "Using neutral estimates of primate LTR divergence [8], we estimate that =
a contemporaneous infection occurred in these ancestral gorilla and chimpan=
zee lineages 3=E2=80=934 million years ago (see Materials and Methods). LTR=
divergence among baboon and macaque was significantly less (0.051% and 0.0=
58%, respectively; p < 0.007, one-tailed t test), corresponding to a much m=
ore recent origin (approximately 1.5 million years ago)."=20
>=20
> What you talk about is therefore retrovirus that infected those apes sepa=
rately=20
> and anyway after human ancestors had already split/stopped hybridising wi=
th=20
> ancestors of those apes. Why are the viruses relevant?
> > Obviously, australopiths were fossil relatives of Pan & Gorilla, NOT of=
us:=20
> > fossil hunters find everywhere lots of ape ancestors, but mysteriously =
in Pliocene Africa they only find "human ancestors"... :-DDD Don't they rea=
lize how ridiculously afro+anthropo-centric they are?? (but yes, who prefer=
s to find an ape ancestor rather than a human ancestor...)
I countered this argument in my own reply to this post of Marc's. Did you s=
ee it?
> The cited article mentions australopiths in precisely zero places so it i=
s unclear from=20
> where you even took them in. By other publications australopiths appeared=
4.2 mya=20
> well before of those retroviruses entered genomes of said apes. If austra=
lopiths did=20
> not make 3.3 mya stone tools in Kenya or 2.6 mya in Ethiopia then someone=
anyway=20
> did. Those places are in Africa and those tools weren't likely made by ch=
impanzee or=20
> gorilla. Instead you are discussing 2.2 mya or younger stuff from time wh=
en tools are=20
> all over the place:=20
> jpg>=20
> Particularly you cherry-pick Java with findings 1.8 mya old. Why?
> > Whenever these fossil hunters discern a humanlike feature in *their* fo=
ssil (usu."bipedality"), they say they've found a "human anestor", not real=
izing that *all* Hominoidea had BP ancestors (Mio-Pliocene), not for runnin=
g after antelopes, of course, but simply for wading upright + climbing arms=
overhead in swamp forests, as all great apes still do occasionally (in spi=
te of Pleist.coolings?), google e.g. "bonobo wading" illustrations.=20
I didn't comment on this long sentence in my reply to Marc either, but it s=
eems strange that he=20
is here talking about swamp forests when his big pitch for BP earlier had t=
hem
wading in coastal waters for shellfish. His "aquatic ape" hypothesis is a p=
atchwork
of sub-hypotheses with no cohesive attempt to show what the relationship be=
tween them should be,
or how good the evidence for each separate one is.
> > How is it possible that there are still idiots who believe that we got =
flatter feet + short toes & poor olfaction (!!) & external noses & huge bra=
ins & stone tools to hunt on Afr.savannas, sweating abundantly water+sodium=
, running 3x slower than antelopes?!
> And again your straw-man without source. What is the source of that antel=
ope chasing=20
> garbage? You never tell. Yet your whole "aquarboreal" theory is built on =
false dichotomy=20
> between those unknown "cheetah men" and your unknown "deep ones". Without=
cites in=20
> scientific publications so both are most likely wrong.
This was such a good post that even JTEM hasn't dared to answer it. Instead=
, both you and=20
Harshman have been led on a fruitless argument with JTEM about his cherry-p=
icking
of a tiny bit of my reply to Marc. I suggest you follow my lead and insist =
that Marc
either start dealing with our arguments or return to sci.anthropology.paleo=
for the rest of 2023.=20
HIs presence in s.b.p. has become counterproductive, since it leads to so m=
uch
noise pollution by JTEM, with no real discussion any more from Marc.
Peter Nyikos
-- end of forwarded message --
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