MESSAGE
| DATE | 2023-05-14 |
| FROM | Ruben Safir
|
| SUBJECT | Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
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Newsgroups: sci.bio.paleontology
Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 08:48:54 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: Human & ape evolution
From: Peter Nyikos
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Xref: panix sci.bio.paleontology:77274
On Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 7:50:23=E2=80=AFAM UTC-4, marc verhaegen wrot=
e:
> Op dinsdag 9 mei 2023 om 03:11:45 UTC+2 schreef Peter Nyikos:
> > On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 2:44:07=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4, marc verhaegen w=
rote:=20
> > > troll:=20
>=20
> > I'm ashamed of you, Marc, calling a Mr. Tiib a "troll"
> I have no idea who this "Tiib" is, Peter,
He is =C3=96=C3=B6 Tiib, and if you had read further than where you ended y=
our post, you would=20
recognize him as the main person you and JTEM have been arguing with on thi=
s thread.
> but everybody who believes his Plio-Pleist.ancestors ran after antelopes =
over Afr.savannas is a *ridiculous* troll:
=C3=96=C3=B6 Tiib is an Estonian, and he grew up under a Communist system, =
where he never heard
of this "antelope" hypothesis. Your shill JTEM refused to believe that Tiib=
had never seen
that hypothesis supported in any scientific paper, but both of you refused =
to provide him
with a reference to such a paper.
Tiib NEVER showed any sign of sympathy towards the "antelope" hypothesis,
yet you call him a troll.
WHY??=20
> we'll (should) know that our Pliocene ancestors weren't even in Africa:=
=20
Aren't lots of African monkeys free from the viral genes?=20
IIRC baboons do carry them. Am I remembering wrong?
> - "Evolution of type C viral genes: evidence for an Asian Origin of Man" =
RE Benveniste & GJ Todaro 1976 Nature 261:101-8 org/10.1038/261101a0=20
> - "Lineage-specific expansions of retroviral insertions within the genome=
s of African great apes, but not humans and orangutans" CT Yohn cs 2005 PLo=
S Biol.3:e110 10.1371/journal.pbio.0030110=20
You are lucky that John Harshman hasn't touched this claim in his arguments
with JTEM so far, and that JTEM has not provided him with references.
Instead he has just stated conclusions.
I will remedy that problem today, by showing John these references.
> Obviously, australopiths were fossil relatives of Pan & Gorilla, NOT of u=
s:=20
> fossil hunters find everywhere lots of ape ancestors, but mysteriously in=
Pliocene Africa they only find "human ancestors"... :-DDD
You speak of comparative anatomy and DNA and physiology in reply to Tiib=20
(see below where you stopped responding to me)
but this is the basis for their conclusion that these are human ancestors.=
=20
Have you ever tried to show that these comparative analyses are flawed?
> Don't they realize how ridiculously afro+anthropo-centric they are??=20
They can't unless you refute their comparative analyses.=20
> (but yes, who prefers to find an ape ancestor rather than a human ancesto=
r...)=20
They call australopiths human ancestors, and "ape" is an informal term
covering all tailless monkeys including a macaque called the Barbary ape.
It is a polyphylectic assemblage, and even non-cladists have nothing to do=
with polyphyletic taxa.
> Whenever these fossil hunters discern a humanlike feature in *their* foss=
il (usu."bipedality"), they say they've found a "human anestor", not realiz=
ing that *all* Hominoidea had BP ancestors (Mio-Pliocene),
This ignores the possibility that human ancestors and gibbon ancestors=20
developed BP independently after their ancestors split from their LCA.=20
This would make BP polyphyletic within Hominoidea.
> not for running after antelopes, of course, but simply for wading uprigh=
t + climbing arms overhead in swamp forests, as all great apes still do occ=
asionally (in spite of Pleist.coolings?), google e.g. "bonobo wading" illus=
trations.=20
> How is it possible that there are still idiots who believe that we got fl=
atter feet + short toes & poor olfaction (!!) & external noses & huge brain=
s & stone tools to hunt on Afr.savannas, sweating abundantly water+sodium, =
running 3x slower than antelopes?!?=20
Mr. Tiib has not encountered any of them, and I have never seen a=20
scientific treatise alleging these activities. The last time I have seen an=
ything
like this in popular science books and articles was over three decades ago.=
=20
> We'll (should) know that the Homo-Pan LCA c 5 Ma lived in swamp forests (=
google "aquarboreal"), frequently wading bipedally & climbing vertically (a=
rms overhead) in the branches above the water, most likely in coastal fores=
ts along the Gulf of Aden, google "WHATtalk verhaegen"):=20
> - Pan followed the E.Afr.coasts, e.g. Au.africanus->robustus->naledi etc.=
(google "naledi verhaegen"),=20
> - Pliocene Homo followed the S.Asian coasts, e.g. H.erectus early-Pleisto=
cene, see my book, google e.g. "gondwanatalks verhaegen".=20
We've been over this before. Now kindly start addressing the things you
are ignoring below.
> ______
> in a post where=20
> > he is acting in a perfectly reasonable fashion.=20
Do you deny this?
> > He said the following to JTEM, and the behavior he describes is=20
> > all too typical of JTEM:=20
Do you deny this? You obscured the fact that he was describing
JTEM and let casual readers think that he was describing you.
I had to scroll way back to the post where the following was written
to see who Mr. Tiib was referring to.
> > > > > > Try to have conversation some time instead of that snipping and=
=20
> > > > > > then replying with imbecile noise for to run from actual argume=
nts.=20
> > >=20
> > > > > "actual arguments"??? :-DDD=20
> > Your loyalty to JTEM is badly misplaced here.=20
> > > troll:=20
> > > > I explained that we need fossils for to know location, ...=20
> > >=20
> > > No, troll, we don't:=20
Then SHOW IT by finding scientific articles that begin to do what I said:
> > Yes, Marc, we do, until you [cite] a tremendous array of studies=20
> > of the environment of Asia and Africa explaining=20
> > how the comparative anatomy of animals millions of years=20
> > in the future is foreshadowed by differences in the paleoenvironment=20
> > of those huge continents. Or ten million years in the future, where DNA=
is concerned.=20
That's about where the human - African ape split took place, by your hypoth=
esis, isn't it?
>=20
> > > never heard of comparative biology?? anatomy? DNA? physiology? ...?=
=20
> > > https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-t=
o-upright-walking-in-early-humans/=20
>=20
> > Is this your idea of a joke? Can you tell me where in this oft-regurgit=
ated article of yours=20
> > any relevance is explained of these things to the Africa v. Asia disput=
e?=20
> >=20
> > ANYWHERE AT ALL?=20
> >=20
> > Before you answer, take a look at the following excerpt from the articl=
e you linked:=20
> >=20
> > "The most intense phase would have occurred later, probably in the earl=
y to middle Pleistocene (1.8 to 0.126 Ma), according to Marc Verhaegen. The=
refore, Waterside Hypothesis is a more appropriate name."=20
> >=20
> > This seems to badly undermine your assertion.=20
And now came the conclusion:=20
> > When I first saw you here in s.b.p. in March, I was very glad, because =
there had been=20
> > little activity here at the time you joined, and my scanty memories fro=
m=20
> > s.a.p. of you over the years had been favorable. But now I am coming=20
> > to think that you are making s.b.p. a worse place than before, and=20
> > it would be better for everyone if you confined yourself to sci.anthrop=
ology.paleo=20
> > for the rest of 2023.=20
That applies even more to JTEM. I am boycotting him on this thread
until one or both of you deals with the majority of points I raise above.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
-- end of forwarded message --
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