MESSAGE
DATE | 2020-12-20 |
FROM | Mithun Bhattacharya
|
SUBJECT | Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] suggestions for perl as web development
|
From hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com Sun Dec 20 16:56:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: archive-at-mrbrklyn.com Delivered-To: archive-at-mrbrklyn.com Received: from www2.mrbrklyn.com (www2.mrbrklyn.com [96.57.23.82]) by mrbrklyn.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89AE9163FF8; Sun, 20 Dec 2020 16:56:33 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: hangout-at-www2.mrbrklyn.com Delivered-To: hangout-at-www2.mrbrklyn.com Received: by mrbrklyn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EE6C4163FD0; Sun, 20 Dec 2020 16:55:58 -0500 (EST) Resent-From: Ruben Safir Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2020 16:55:58 -0500 Resent-Message-ID: <20201220215558.GE30217-at-www2.mrbrklyn.com> Resent-To: hangout-at-mrbrklyn.com X-Original-To: ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com Delivered-To: ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com Received: from mxout1-he-de.apache.org (mxout1-he-de.apache.org [95.216.194.37]) by mrbrklyn.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 564D3163FC0 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2020 13:32:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.apache.org (mailroute1-lw-us.apache.org [207.244.88.153]) by mxout1-he-de.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mxout1-he-de.apache.org) with SMTP id 6A70364CF7 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2020 18:32:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 48526 invoked by uid 500); 20 Dec 2020 18:32:33 -0000 Mailing-List: contact modperl-help-at-perl.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk Delivered-To: mailing list modperl-at-perl.apache.org Received: (qmail 48515 invoked by uid 99); 20 Dec 2020 18:32:32 -0000 Received: from spamproc1-he-de.apache.org (HELO spamproc1-he-de.apache.org) (116.203.196.100) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Sun, 20 Dec 2020 18:32:32 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spamproc1-he-de.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at spamproc1-he-de.apache.org) with ESMTP id 103211FF3A1 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2020 18:32:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at spamproc1-he-de.apache.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.2, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=disabled Authentication-Results: spamproc1-he-de.apache.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mx1-ec2-va.apache.org ([116.203.227.195]) by localhost (spamproc1-he-de.apache.org [116.203.196.100]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nH4U5618dsFT for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2020 18:32:31 +0000 (UTC) Received-SPF: Pass (mailfrom) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=209.85.217.47; helo=mail-vs1-f47.google.com; envelope-from=mithnb-at-gmail.com; receiver= Received: from mail-vs1-f47.google.com (mail-vs1-f47.google.com [209.85.217.47]) by mx1-ec2-va.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mx1-ec2-va.apache.org) with ESMTPS id B55BEBCC04 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2020 18:32:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-vs1-f47.google.com with SMTP id e15so4245778vsa.0 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2020 10:32:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=nCj09z8XeTZzM+Dd82NuRd6AcekwIQTJUlLgt3Hkfbg=; b=bc6r7cZ3XZ7MUR+3WD8gp/hR3fL7nj8mgN9P2IpYsBftiQxZLHyp5fljaCisjgvd4W 8JyG6sMEL+pwqOdDAsdgWTA3P+MeGDioP9Aa8rcNGFSQpqNG6YphCZG+YDNQxy5G/k8S fvPSZUXDECzLFmEIyQPZCI1AgxbTMzqTFj7hALjFDLLo0a2BMmlHkvraMwjF+vQGS7H+ 1Kucew/57o3tGMLvnusIsLZpaK5SdYZ+shtBIxfOoWZVH+//ji6Xf+vfBEhr2LRzh+KT 0BuVCrDaSNrzMHzVc7n5RQ7oPEnAAluvh3sOswnX/Q3blPCpdwYr4aqFozvNHzhQEl7S MfNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=nCj09z8XeTZzM+Dd82NuRd6AcekwIQTJUlLgt3Hkfbg=; b=bb30jmFW2j1ZgmuwRouHC+j1/RBjlqecbyvSa/vG6UKxWIJZZqZ1pK/q7Xf3AX7MG+ qWRxHjQgK9WIysYF7I0K4TkDhDu8ctp/YuINp1u8ZYWHNnFFdUINmg7q7Q0plNEHURzh Ka48td95QonIqDxsZKEs7sbbAPkKt4zzrc1q7xVz2uvnLqkbWzFfOsQP+PxoOAW1mgen sZnqwb26W6m7T/Bva1MeWBDb+4m5ne2d02brRqMnRy4CNFDDpr6RMmgEAC2Y7muBu45r xfxhLhC8XtMI2bIVo1WW3dxyUVHrK59abSXRNPcmMnTfBlINdsAhm1m52X+EnpRFwr/C Y3rg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530gnzuZMg5XAiLuweYpfZAjrN6KHEdHeiXvJ2p9Kb+eIKHgVBne 9i2qoGTdAVFVY7tuz/54FKnPpI/WwHqSxSmxHuGIjOutvDE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzV3ttxwd6TotYOTYMdQDGRDB0ebWzonwCmXrA2fY6Qi7ielL55mGdoFWloFui+W+EmFmeJIjp4MsdvHWH4T4g= X-Received: by 2002:a67:c316:: with SMTP id r22mr10670011vsj.30.1608489144279; Sun, 20 Dec 2020 10:32:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <27779c3e56564c73a7fa49b49cc3f9f0-at-sanger.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: From: Mithun Bhattacharya Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2020 12:32:13 -0600 Message-ID: To: mod_perl list Subject: Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] suggestions for perl as web development language [EXT] X-BeenThere: hangout-at-nylxs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.30rc1 List-Id: NYLXS Tech Talk and Politics List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1858392700==" Errors-To: hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com Sender: "Hangout"
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I am confused - you like threads so Perl is bad ? I am very happy forking away and yes I work a lot with non thread safe DBI connections without any issues.
On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 11:53 AM John Dunlap wrote:
> In my opinion, no one should build new projects in Perl. The world is > increasingly trending towards parallelism and higher numbers of cpu cores > and Perl is poorly positioned to leverage these advancements. Many of > Perl's dependencies are not thread safe and mod_perl forces you to use > mpm_prefork. My organization has started moving away from Perl to Elixir > for these reasons. > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 3:37 AM James Smith wrote: > >> Perl is a great solution for web development. >> >> Others will disagree but the best way I still believe is using mod_perl - >> but only if you use it's full power - and you probably need a special sort >> of mind set to use - but that can be said for any language. >> >> From experience - it may be fractionally slower than small "standalone" >> apps that dancer etc are good at, but it is (a) much, much more stable >> {dancer etc does not cope well with either large requests or lots of small >> requests}, and (b) if you have a large code base and/or a large number of >> services then it generally uses much less compute power than the others >> {can easily handle multiple services on a single apache instance} >> >> Where it really gains is the hooks into the apache process - being able >> to add functionality easily at any stage in the request process, from path >> translation, AAA stages, pre-processing, to post-processing and logging, >> and also to interact with other languages at any stage - e.g. can handle >> pre-processing & post-processing around a script written in another >> language (e.g. PHP, Java) or produced by another webserver integrated by >> mod_proxy. >> >> It isn't really a framework though like dancer or mojolicious and thus >> has its own advantages and disadvantages. >> >> You would to some extent have to roll your own code to produce the pages >> themselves although there are libraries out there to do lots of it. >> >> We have an in house library whose embryonic stages were written over 20 >> years ago - and has now been stable for around 12-13 years and works >> strong... >> >> James >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Wesley Peng >> Sent: 04 August 2020 06:43 >> To: modperl-at-perl.apache.org >> Subject: suggestions for perl as web development language [EXT] >> >> greetings, >> >> My team use all of perl, ruby, python for scripting stuff. >> perl is stronger for system admin tasks, and data analysis etc. >> But for web development, it seems to be not as popular as others. >> It has less selective frameworks, and even we can't get the right people >> to do the webdev job with perl. >> Do you think in today we will give up perl/modperl as web development >> language, and choose the alternatives instead? >> >> Thanks & Regards >> >> >> >> >> -- >> The Wellcome Sanger Institute is operated by Genome Research >> Limited, a charity registered in England with number 1021457 and a >> company registered in England with number 2742969, whose registered >> office is 215 Euston Road, London, NW1 2BE. > >
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I am confused - you like threads so Perl is bad ? I am ver= y happy forking away and yes I work a lot with non thread safe DBI connecti= ons without any issues.
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:= 1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">In my opinio= n, no one should build new projects in Perl. The world is increasingly tren= ding towards parallelism and higher numbers of cpu cores and Perl is poorly= positioned to leverage these advancements. Many of Perl's dependencies= are not thread safe and mod_perl forces you to use mpm_prefork. My organiz= ation has started moving away from Perl to Elixir for these reasons. <= br>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg= b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Perl is a great solution for web developme= nt.
Others will disagree but the best way I still believe is using mod_perl - b= ut only if you use it's full power - and you probably need a special so= rt of mind set to use - but that can be said for any language.
>From experience - it may be fractionally slower than small "standalone= " apps that dancer etc are good at, but it is (a) much, much more stab= le {dancer etc does not cope well with either large requests or lots of sma= ll requests}, and (b) if you have a large code base and/or a large number o= f services then it generally uses much less compute power than the others {= can easily handle multiple services on a single apache instance}
Where it really gains is the hooks into the apache process - being able to = add functionality easily at any stage in the request process, from path tra= nslation, AAA stages, pre-processing, to post-processing and logging, and a= lso to interact with other languages at any stage - e.g. can handle pre-pro= cessing & post-processing around a script written in another language (= e.g. PHP, Java) or produced by another webserver integrated by mod_proxy.r>
It isn't really a framework though like dancer or mojolicious and thus = has its own advantages and disadvantages.
You would to some extent have to roll your own code to produce the pages th= emselves although there are libraries out there to do lots of it.
We have an in house library whose embryonic stages were written over 20 yea= rs ago - and has now been stable for around 12-13 years and works strong...=
James
-----Original Message-----
From: Wesley Peng <target=3D"_blank">me-at-yonghua.org>
Sent: 04 August 2020 06:43
To: "_blank">modperl-at-perl.apache.org
Subject: suggestions for perl as web development language [EXT]
greetings,
My team use all of perl, ruby, python for scripting stuff.
perl is stronger for system admin tasks, and data analysis etc.
But for web development, it seems to be not as popular as others.
It has less selective frameworks, and even we can't get the right peopl= e to do the webdev job with perl.
Do you think in today we will give up perl/modperl as web development langu= age, and choose the alternatives instead?
Thanks & Regards
--
=C2=A0The Wellcome Sanger Institute is operated by Genome Research
=C2=A0Limited, a charity registered in England with number 1021457 and a r> =C2=A0company registered in England with number 2742969, whose registered <= br> =C2=A0office is 215 Euston Road, London, NW1 2BE.
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_______________________________________________ Hangout mailing list Hangout-at-nylxs.com http://lists.mrbrklyn.com/mailman/listinfo/hangout
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I am confused - you like threads so Perl is bad ? I am very happy forking away and yes I work a lot with non thread safe DBI connections without any issues.
On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 11:53 AM John Dunlap wrote:
> In my opinion, no one should build new projects in Perl. The world is > increasingly trending towards parallelism and higher numbers of cpu cores > and Perl is poorly positioned to leverage these advancements. Many of > Perl's dependencies are not thread safe and mod_perl forces you to use > mpm_prefork. My organization has started moving away from Perl to Elixir > for these reasons. > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 3:37 AM James Smith wrote: > >> Perl is a great solution for web development. >> >> Others will disagree but the best way I still believe is using mod_perl - >> but only if you use it's full power - and you probably need a special sort >> of mind set to use - but that can be said for any language. >> >> From experience - it may be fractionally slower than small "standalone" >> apps that dancer etc are good at, but it is (a) much, much more stable >> {dancer etc does not cope well with either large requests or lots of small >> requests}, and (b) if you have a large code base and/or a large number of >> services then it generally uses much less compute power than the others >> {can easily handle multiple services on a single apache instance} >> >> Where it really gains is the hooks into the apache process - being able >> to add functionality easily at any stage in the request process, from path >> translation, AAA stages, pre-processing, to post-processing and logging, >> and also to interact with other languages at any stage - e.g. can handle >> pre-processing & post-processing around a script written in another >> language (e.g. PHP, Java) or produced by another webserver integrated by >> mod_proxy. >> >> It isn't really a framework though like dancer or mojolicious and thus >> has its own advantages and disadvantages. >> >> You would to some extent have to roll your own code to produce the pages >> themselves although there are libraries out there to do lots of it. >> >> We have an in house library whose embryonic stages were written over 20 >> years ago - and has now been stable for around 12-13 years and works >> strong... >> >> James >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Wesley Peng >> Sent: 04 August 2020 06:43 >> To: modperl-at-perl.apache.org >> Subject: suggestions for perl as web development language [EXT] >> >> greetings, >> >> My team use all of perl, ruby, python for scripting stuff. >> perl is stronger for system admin tasks, and data analysis etc. >> But for web development, it seems to be not as popular as others. >> It has less selective frameworks, and even we can't get the right people >> to do the webdev job with perl. >> Do you think in today we will give up perl/modperl as web development >> language, and choose the alternatives instead? >> >> Thanks & Regards >> >> >> >> >> -- >> The Wellcome Sanger Institute is operated by Genome Research >> Limited, a charity registered in England with number 1021457 and a >> company registered in England with number 2742969, whose registered >> office is 215 Euston Road, London, NW1 2BE. > >
--00000000000011e50d05b6e9907d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am confused - you like threads so Perl is bad ? I am ver= y happy forking away and yes I work a lot with non thread safe DBI connecti= ons without any issues.
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:= 1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">In my opinio= n, no one should build new projects in Perl. The world is increasingly tren= ding towards parallelism and higher numbers of cpu cores and Perl is poorly= positioned to leverage these advancements. Many of Perl's dependencies= are not thread safe and mod_perl forces you to use mpm_prefork. My organiz= ation has started moving away from Perl to Elixir for these reasons. <= br>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg= b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Perl is a great solution for web developme= nt.
Others will disagree but the best way I still believe is using mod_perl - b= ut only if you use it's full power - and you probably need a special so= rt of mind set to use - but that can be said for any language.
>From experience - it may be fractionally slower than small "standalone= " apps that dancer etc are good at, but it is (a) much, much more stab= le {dancer etc does not cope well with either large requests or lots of sma= ll requests}, and (b) if you have a large code base and/or a large number o= f services then it generally uses much less compute power than the others {= can easily handle multiple services on a single apache instance}
Where it really gains is the hooks into the apache process - being able to = add functionality easily at any stage in the request process, from path tra= nslation, AAA stages, pre-processing, to post-processing and logging, and a= lso to interact with other languages at any stage - e.g. can handle pre-pro= cessing & post-processing around a script written in another language (= e.g. PHP, Java) or produced by another webserver integrated by mod_proxy.r>
It isn't really a framework though like dancer or mojolicious and thus = has its own advantages and disadvantages.
You would to some extent have to roll your own code to produce the pages th= emselves although there are libraries out there to do lots of it.
We have an in house library whose embryonic stages were written over 20 yea= rs ago - and has now been stable for around 12-13 years and works strong...=
James
-----Original Message-----
From: Wesley Peng <target=3D"_blank">me-at-yonghua.org>
Sent: 04 August 2020 06:43
To: "_blank">modperl-at-perl.apache.org
Subject: suggestions for perl as web development language [EXT]
greetings,
My team use all of perl, ruby, python for scripting stuff.
perl is stronger for system admin tasks, and data analysis etc.
But for web development, it seems to be not as popular as others.
It has less selective frameworks, and even we can't get the right peopl= e to do the webdev job with perl.
Do you think in today we will give up perl/modperl as web development langu= age, and choose the alternatives instead?
Thanks & Regards
--
=C2=A0The Wellcome Sanger Institute is operated by Genome Research
=C2=A0Limited, a charity registered in England with number 1021457 and a r> =C2=A0company registered in England with number 2742969, whose registered <= br> =C2=A0office is 215 Euston Road, London, NW1 2BE.
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_______________________________________________ Hangout mailing list Hangout-at-nylxs.com http://lists.mrbrklyn.com/mailman/listinfo/hangout
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