MESSAGE
| DATE | 2020-02-24 |
| FROM | Mike Gerwitz
|
| SUBJECT | Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] feeling intimidated for endorsing the GNU
|
From hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com Tue Feb 25 06:46:58 2020
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From: Mike Gerwitz
To: Andy Wingo
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 22:19:03 -0500
Message-ID: <87ftez2w2g.fsf-at-gnu.org>
References: <87wo8dp2vz.fsf-at-galassi.org> <87blpobpqz.fsf-at-gnu.org>
<878skrpwub.fsf-at-pobox.com>
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Subject: Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] feeling intimidated for endorsing the GNU
social contract
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On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 21:13:48 +0100, Andy Wingo wrote:
>> We've had a few people in particular that have been especially
>> problematic, and one person in particular that has many different
>> aliases and has even gone so far as to create a separate list that the
>> person has forcefully subscribed people to. I condemn this
>> behavior. But there's little we can do to stop it.
>
> I am very sorry, but this is simply not true.
There is noting we can do to stop someone from scraping email addresses
from a public list and subscribing those users to another list. That is
what I was referring to.
> The best solution to the problem is a public mailing list whose
> subscribers are limited to GNU stakeholders. This would go a long way
> towards discourse civility, and is what was asked for in the beginning;
> you have the power to do such a thing.
I do not have the power to do such a thing. That is beyond the
authority granted to me.
> It is possible to ban people who have a pattern of problematic behavior.
> It too would go a long way to solving this problem. You have the power
> to do this, also.
>
> It is possible to be more vigorous in moderating. You and Brendan took
> it upon yourselves the task of moderating this list, so this also is
> within your power.
Moderators of this list have offered their time to work within certain
guidelines.
> And yet for some reason you used this power to let the message
> referred to in
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/2020-02/msg00441.html
> go through.
To be clear: you're saying that I personally used my "power" to
personally approve a racist message to this list? What an absurd
accusation. I just got done condemning someone for calling another
person "sick", which is far less offensive.
Just because a message makes it to this list does not mean that it was
approved. Not every message going to this list is moderated. Before
reading this accusation of yours, I read a private message from another
person offering his/her time to help moderate this list, wondering how
such a message got through, and it's being investigated. Do you not
assume that we're acting in good faith?
You know quite well that GNU is a project of volunteers. And I can
assure you that I'd rather not be spending my time babysitting this
list. Messages like this do not help matters any. I would not have
approved that message if it was presented to me in a moderation queue.
> In a message to Andreas Enge
> (https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/2020-02/msg00433.htm=
l),
> you write:
>
>> But coming to this list, raising an inflammatory topic, and then
>> demanding that moderation be used as a tool to reduce tensions is not
>> acceptable either.
>
> Here you have chosen instead to blame the recipients of harassment for
> the harassment that they have received: it says "you deserve it", in
> pretty much those words.
Once again you accuse me of something I have not done, this time by
deliberately twisting my words, in plain sight nonetheless. I did not
say "you deserve it", or even imply such a thing. The moderators do not
cater to individuals' expectations. I would hope that one would
consider that to be a good thing, since you wouldn't want us to cater to
the expectations of those you disagree with.
I have made strong efforts to be a neutral party throughout all of this,
but I will not tolerate attempts to smear my or other volunteers'
efforts.
=2D-=20
Mike Gerwitz
Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B 2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
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_______________________________________________
Hangout mailing list
Hangout-at-nylxs.com
http://lists.mrbrklyn.com/mailman/listinfo/hangout
--===============0774044034==--
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On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 21:13:48 +0100, Andy Wingo wrote:
>> We've had a few people in particular that have been especially
>> problematic, and one person in particular that has many different
>> aliases and has even gone so far as to create a separate list that the
>> person has forcefully subscribed people to. I condemn this
>> behavior. But there's little we can do to stop it.
>
> I am very sorry, but this is simply not true.
There is noting we can do to stop someone from scraping email addresses
from a public list and subscribing those users to another list. That is
what I was referring to.
> The best solution to the problem is a public mailing list whose
> subscribers are limited to GNU stakeholders. This would go a long way
> towards discourse civility, and is what was asked for in the beginning;
> you have the power to do such a thing.
I do not have the power to do such a thing. That is beyond the
authority granted to me.
> It is possible to ban people who have a pattern of problematic behavior.
> It too would go a long way to solving this problem. You have the power
> to do this, also.
>
> It is possible to be more vigorous in moderating. You and Brendan took
> it upon yourselves the task of moderating this list, so this also is
> within your power.
Moderators of this list have offered their time to work within certain
guidelines.
> And yet for some reason you used this power to let the message
> referred to in
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/2020-02/msg00441.html
> go through.
To be clear: you're saying that I personally used my "power" to
personally approve a racist message to this list? What an absurd
accusation. I just got done condemning someone for calling another
person "sick", which is far less offensive.
Just because a message makes it to this list does not mean that it was
approved. Not every message going to this list is moderated. Before
reading this accusation of yours, I read a private message from another
person offering his/her time to help moderate this list, wondering how
such a message got through, and it's being investigated. Do you not
assume that we're acting in good faith?
You know quite well that GNU is a project of volunteers. And I can
assure you that I'd rather not be spending my time babysitting this
list. Messages like this do not help matters any. I would not have
approved that message if it was presented to me in a moderation queue.
> In a message to Andreas Enge
> (https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/2020-02/msg00433.htm=
l),
> you write:
>
>> But coming to this list, raising an inflammatory topic, and then
>> demanding that moderation be used as a tool to reduce tensions is not
>> acceptable either.
>
> Here you have chosen instead to blame the recipients of harassment for
> the harassment that they have received: it says "you deserve it", in
> pretty much those words.
Once again you accuse me of something I have not done, this time by
deliberately twisting my words, in plain sight nonetheless. I did not
say "you deserve it", or even imply such a thing. The moderators do not
cater to individuals' expectations. I would hope that one would
consider that to be a good thing, since you wouldn't want us to cater to
the expectations of those you disagree with.
I have made strong efforts to be a neutral party throughout all of this,
but I will not tolerate attempts to smear my or other volunteers'
efforts.
=2D-=20
Mike Gerwitz
Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B 2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
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_______________________________________________
Hangout mailing list
Hangout-at-nylxs.com
http://lists.mrbrklyn.com/mailman/listinfo/hangout
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