MESSAGE
| DATE | 2017-04-07 |
| FROM | Ruben Safir
|
| SUBJECT | Re: [Hangout of NYLXS] free desktop SUCKS
|
>
> So, I assume you've rolled up your figurative sleeves and started
> studying how to rebuild a Manjaro package from source, right?
>
I did that when I was working on the Kernel Development and I used
the Arch package management and Manjaro versions for my home spun images
with my own scheduler.
Nothing fancy, but yes I did start to look at it.
I think he is also encouraging me to get more technically involved
> No? What's taking you?
>
>
> > > On Debian 8 and 9, I've done an experiment in what's required to do
> > > entirely without the systemd package. Ultimately, especially for server
> > > computing, I want to reach the point where I've gotten rid of all of the
> > > Freedesktop.org CADT-ware. My experiment -- a quite successful one --
> > > is documented here:
> > >
> > > http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html
> >
> > I'll look at this but two things need to be notes:
> >
> > First, this is for my workstation not a server.
> > Secondly, and this is a huge problem historically - Debians desktops
> > tend to be more broken than anyone elses. I get so fustrated with
> > Debian's desktop software.... they just drive me crazy.
>
> You seem to have misunderstood my point, more than a bit.
>
> I wasn't suggesting that you could move sideways to Debian, really. I
> was pointing to my experiment (and its write-up) as a case study in
> how to deal with such issues.
>
> In passing, my page documents what happens in Debian 8 (and 9, it turns
> out) if you simply disallow, using standard package-handling settings,
> some of the key bits of the Freedesktop.org package-dependency hairball.
> Answer: not anywhere near as much as Debian dissidents (notably my
> friends at the Devuan Project) had been claiming for 5-6 years.
>
> The _omnibus_ kitchen-sink metapackages of some particularly
> systemd-infested DEs can no longer be installed (GNOME, MATE, Cinnamon,
> KDE, and Razor-qt), but most apps that comprise those DEs are not
> affected. Package network-manager is a dead loss (because its a GNOME
> monstrosity). Printing metapackage 'hplip' cannot be installed, but
> that's not a problem once you realise you don't need the metapackage,
> only two substantive packages it ropes in.
>
> Further, along the way, I list the other measures that can be taken to
> deal with unacceptable package dependencies, which include third-party
> package repos and -- tada! -- rebuilding packages locally with the build
> options tweaked the way you want. (There may be further options I
> detailed. This is not story time: You can bother to read it for
> yourself, and not expect me to spoonfeed you.)
>
> All of these options are potentially available to you on any
> binary-packaged distribution, not just Debian.
>
>
> But since you mention 'Debian's desktops are broken', I will describe
> what I keep seeing:
>
> 1. Naive user tries Debian-stable by default, immediately complains
> 'All the versions are so ancient!' Someone says 'You could
> try the Debian-testing branch, but will need to understand
> package-quarantining and the security implications of being
> on that branch.' User is also warned not to do the bonehead
> maneuver of mixing package sources from Debian-stable and
> Debian-testing (or Debian-unstable).
>
> 2. User switches tracks to Debian-testing, and at first is jubilant
> about cutting-edge versions. But then, individual apps or the DE
> metapackage cannot be updated for a week at a time because some
> necessary lib hasn't cleared the nightly quarantining script on
> the build masters, and user has no idea how to deal with this
> because he/she didn't bother to understand package-quarantining.
> Someone says 'You could try the Debian-unstable branch', but
> will need to deal with the lack of build-time quality control
> from quarantining scripts, with the consequence that occasionally
> a newly uploaded package version with some breakage the dev failed
> to catch goes through, and you'll need to be able to deal with
> that. Remember: We absolutely do not guarantee that everything
> on Debian-unstable works all the time, even though all 1000-plus
> Debian developers run Debian-unstable 24x7 and rely on it for
> production purposes. Don't bother about some little thing being
> broken. You were warned about that possibility by the name.'
>
> 3. User switches tracks to Debian-testing, and at first is jubilant
> about how even hairball metapackages are always installable,
> but then some lib arrives that has an irritating and easily
> fixed error in its postinst script, and because the package ends
> up in a half-installed state, apt-get and dpkg refuse to work.
> User lacks the common sense to cite the error on #debian and
> be told how to patch the postinst script. User hits LD50 level
> of frurstration and dies.
>
> 4. Only kidding. User does the usual dumb thing of distro-hopping
> at this point without bothering to understand the problem.
>
> User could have avoided all of this headache and wasted time by being
> smarter, e.g., either do desktop computing without a DE and with his/her
> choice of highly-congenial window manager, _or_ using a maintained
> desktop fork based on continuously stabilised Debian-unstable, such
> as those from the Siduction distro.'
>
> But smarter is in short supply.
>
>
> > I'll probably look at Gentoo....
>
> This would qualify IMO as doing random sh*t on impulse. The
> alternative would be to stop and think.
>
> And, y'know, you could bother to read what I recommended might help.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Hangout-at-nylxs.com
> http://www.nylxs.com/mailman/listinfo/hangout
--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com
Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
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