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DATE 2015-11-01

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Key: Value:

Key: Value:

MESSAGE
DATE 2015-11-08
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
On 11/08/2015 10:47 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Ruben Safir (ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com):
>
>> Linux sucks... hat is he short version
>
> Extremely useful. Thanks!
>
> _______________________________________________
> hangout mailing list
> hangout-at-nylxs.com
> http://www.nylxs.com/
>


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By Jonathan Corbet
November 6, 2015
It is not often that Linux kernel development attracts the attention of
a mainstream newspaper like The Washington Post; lengthy features on the
kernel community's approach to security are even more uncommon. So when
just such a feature hit the net, it attracted a lot of attention. This
article has gotten mixed reactions, with many seeing it as a direct
attack on Linux. The motivations behind the article are hard to know,
but history suggests that we may look back on it as having given us a
much-needed push in a direction we should have been going for some time.

Think back, a moment, to the dim and distant past — April 1999, to be
specific. An analyst company named Mindcraft issued a report showing
that Windows NT greatly outperformed Red Hat Linux 5.2 and Apache for
web-server workloads. The outcry from the Linux community, including
from a very young LWN, was swift and strong. The report was a piece of
Microsoft-funded FUD trying to cut off an emerging threat to its
world-domination plans. The Linux system had been deliberately
configured for poor performance. The hardware chosen was not well
supported by Linux at the time. And so on.

Once people calmed down a bit, though, one other fact came clear: the
Mindcraft folks, whatever their motivations, had a point. Linux did,
indeed, have performance problems that were reasonably well understood
even at the time. The community then did what it does best: we sat down
and fixed the problems. The scheduler got exclusive wakeups, for
example, to put an end to the thundering-herd problem in the acceptance
of connection requests. Numerous other little problems were fixed.
Within a year or so, the kernel's performance on this kind of workload
had improved considerably.

The Mindcraft report, in other words, was a much-needed kick in the rear
that got the community to deal with issues that had been neglected until
then.

The Washington Post article seems clearly slanted toward a negative view
of the Linux kernel and its contributors. It freely mixes kernel
problems with other issues (the AshleyMadison.com breakin, for example)
that were not kernel vulnerabilities at all. The fact that vendors seem
to have little interest in getting security fixes to their customers is
danced around like a huge elephant in the room. There are rumors of dark
forces that drove the article in the hopes of taking Linux down a notch.
All of this could well be true, but it should not be allowed to
overshadow the simple fact that the article has a valid point.

We do a reasonable job of finding and fixing bugs. Problems, whether
they are security-related or not, are patched quickly, and the
stable-update mechanism makes those patches available to kernel users.
Compared to a lot of programs out there (free and proprietary alike),
the kernel is quite well supported. But pointing at our ability to fix
bugs is missing a crucial point: fixing security bugs is, in the end, a
game of whack-a-mole. There will always be more moles, some of which we
will not know about (and will thus be unable to whack) for a long time
after they are discovered and exploited by attackers. These bugs leave
our users vulnerable, even if the commercial side of Linux did a perfect
job of getting fixes to users — which it decidedly does not.

The point that developers concerned about security have been trying to
make for a while is that fixing bugs is not enough. We must instead
realize that we will never fix them all and focus on making bugs harder
to exploit. That means restricting access to information about the
kernel, making it impossible for the kernel to execute code in
user-space memory, instrumenting the kernel to detect integer overflows,
and all the other things laid out in Kees Cook's Kernel Summit talk at
the end of October. Many of these techniques are well understood and
have been adopted by other operating systems; others will require
innovation on our part. But, if we want to adequately defend our users
from attackers, these changes need to be made.

Why hasn't the kernel adopted these technologies already? The Washington
Post article puts the blame firmly on the development community, and on
Linus Torvalds in particular. The culture of the kernel community
prioritizes performance and functionality over security and is unwilling
to make compromises if they are needed to improve the security of the
kernel. There is some truth to this claim; the good news is that
attitudes appear to be shifting as the scope of the problem becomes
clear. Kees's talk was well received, and it clearly got developers
thinking and talking about the issues.

The point that has been missed is that we do not just have a case of
Linus fending off useful security patches. There simply are not many
such patches circulating in the kernel community. In particular, the few
developers who are working in this area have never made a serious
attempt to get that work integrated upstream. Getting any large,
intrusive patch set merged requires working with the kernel community,
making the case for the changes, splitting the changes into reviewable
pieces, dealing with review comments, and so on. It can be tiresome and
frustrating, but it's how the kernel works, and it clearly results in a
more generally useful, more maintainable kernel in the long run.

Almost nobody is doing that work to get new security technologies into
the kernel. One might cite a "chilling effect" from the hostile reaction
such patches can receive, but that is an inadequate answer: developers
have managed to merge many changes over the years despite a difficult
initial reaction. Few security developers are even trying.

Why aren't they trying? One fairly obvious answer is that almost nobody
is being paid to try. Almost all of the work going into the kernel is
done by paid developers and has been for many years. The areas that
companies see fit to support get a lot of work and are well advanced in
the kernel. The areas that companies think are not their problem are
rather less so. The difficulties in getting support for realtime
development are a clear case in point. Other areas, such as
documentation, tend to languish as well. Security is clearly one of
those areas. There are a lot of reasons why Linux lags behind in
defensive security technologies, but one of the key ones is that the
companies making money on Linux have not prioritized the development and
integration of those technologies.

There are signs that things might be changing a bit. More developers are
showing interest in security-related issues, though commercial support
for their work is still less than it should be. The reaction against
security-related changes might be less knee-jerk negative than it used
to be. Efforts like the Kernel Self Protection Project are starting to
work on integrating existing security technologies into the kernel.

We have a long way to go, but, with some support and the right mindset,
a lot of progress can be made in a short time. The kernel community can
do amazing things when it sets its mind to it. With luck, the Washington
Post article will help to provide the needed impetus for that sort of
setting of mind. History suggests that we will eventually see this
moment as a turning point, when we were finally embarrassed into doing
work that has clearly needed doing for a while. Linux should not have a
substandard security story for much longer.


_______________________________________________
hangout mailing list
hangout-at-nylxs.com
http://www.nylxs.com/

  1. 2015-11-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] [dha-at-panix.com: [MEETING] November Social]
  2. 2015-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Aviva's new baby
  3. 2015-11-02 einker <eminker-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Aviva's new baby
  4. 2015-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] IBM Linux mainframes
  5. 2015-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] the dangers of lip reading
  6. 2015-11-03 ruben safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: JEWISH PROFESSOR HOUNDED AT CALIFORNIA
  7. 2015-11-03 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: JEWISH PROFESSOR HOUNDED AT CALIFORNIA
  8. 2015-11-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] make a small killing in the market?
  9. 2015-11-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Israel Tech Jobs
  10. 2015-11-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] more jobs
  11. 2015-11-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] UML software development and the team effort..
  12. 2015-11-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Israel Tech Jobs
  13. 2015-11-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] New TV Set for sale
  14. 2015-11-04 ruben safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] openrc tips
  15. 2015-11-04 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] AI work in NYC and the torch Project
  16. 2015-11-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  17. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  18. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  19. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  20. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  21. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  22. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  23. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] tip from craigslist
  24. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Microsoft Linux with systemd is on the way
  25. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUN in the largest Washington Post Article
  26. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] UML
  27. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  28. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  29. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  30. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  31. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  32. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  33. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  34. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  35. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] mets mets mets
  36. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] This is not Van Gogh,
  37. 2015-11-07 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUN in the largest Washington Post
  38. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Movie of the week
  39. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  40. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  41. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Who is paying for what drugs
  42. 2015-11-08 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  43. 2015-11-08 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  44. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  45. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  46. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  47. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cruise to Albany up the Hudson
  48. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  49. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  50. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  51. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  52. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  53. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Libreplanet in Boston Next Year
  54. 2015-11-08 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  55. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Open for Comments
  56. 2015-11-09 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  57. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] The race is on to replace your linux toolkit
  58. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  59. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  60. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Decent Linux Podcast this week
  61. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] True Love
  62. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Browser security and EFF
  63. 2015-11-09 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  64. 2015-11-09 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  65. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  66. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  67. 2015-11-09 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  68. 2015-11-09 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  69. 2015-11-09 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] serious iphone/objectivec problems
  70. 2015-11-09 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] serious iphone/objectivec problems
  71. 2015-11-09 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] serious iphone/objectivec problems
  72. 2015-11-09 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  73. 2015-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] The Technology of Wishing
  74. 2015-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] another time and place
  75. 2015-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] The importance and moral obligation to archive
  76. 2015-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] message from Jesus
  77. 2015-11-10 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] everything in the story has to be exactly on time
  78. 2015-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] RMS on Education
  79. 2015-11-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] situation worsens
  80. 2015-11-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Who snoops on Who
  81. 2015-11-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Salman Rushdie
  82. 2015-11-14 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Ayaan Hirsi Ali on Islam
  83. 2015-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] [jkeen-at-verizon.net: ny.pm technical meeting on
  84. 2015-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Quick Cruise up the Hudson with the Smithsonian
  85. 2015-11-15 From: "ballantrae101 ." <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Quick Cruise up the Hudson with the Smithsonian
  86. 2015-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Movie of the Week
  87. 2015-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] FWIW for Michael et al
  88. 2015-11-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] jobs
  89. 2015-11-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] jobs followup
  90. 2015-11-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  91. 2015-11-16 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] windows 3.1
  92. 2015-11-16 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  93. 2015-11-16 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] windows 3.1
  94. 2015-11-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] windows 3.1
  95. 2015-11-17 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] windows 3.1
  96. 2015-11-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] [conspire] CIA chief Brennan hints new gov't
  97. 2015-11-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] could be done better if it was planned
  98. 2015-11-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Bad Debt Collectors and Their Prey
  99. 2015-11-18 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] permissions in Debian packages?
  100. 2015-11-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] permissions in Debian packages?
  101. 2015-11-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] ms linux continues
  102. 2015-11-19 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ms linux continues
  103. 2015-11-19 Chris Knadle <Chris.Knadle-at-coredump.us> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] permissions in Debian packages?
  104. 2015-11-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ms linux continues
  105. 2015-11-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Clips Notes
  106. 2015-11-19 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] permissions in Debian packages?
  107. 2015-11-19 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] permissions in Debian packages?
  108. 2015-11-20 Chris Knadle <Chris.Knadle-at-coredump.us> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] permissions in Debian packages?
  109. 2015-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Handling dates and Time
  110. 2015-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Handling dates and Time
  111. 2015-11-20 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Could NYLXS, CCNY. LIU,
  112. 2015-11-20 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Could NYLXS, CCNY. LIU,
  113. 2015-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: eudyptula challenge,
  114. 2015-11-20 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Could NYLXS, CCNY. LIU,
  115. 2015-11-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Wastson on SuSE
  116. 2015-11-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Wastson on SuSE
  117. 2015-11-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Movie of the Week
  118. 2015-11-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Movie of the Week
  119. 2015-11-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Artificial Intelligence and Forward Chaining
  120. 2015-11-22 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Linux Job
  121. 2015-11-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] another job
  122. 2015-11-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] PHP
  123. 2015-11-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] this is the funiest thing Robin Williams never said
  124. 2015-11-24 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] this is the funiest thing Robin Williams never
  125. 2015-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Letters of Recommendation
  126. 2015-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] [noreply-at-comsoc.org: New Course on Big Data 5-6
  127. 2015-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Firefox marketing on Flatbush Avenue
  128. 2015-11-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheapbytes has been slacking
  129. 2015-11-24 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheapbytes has been slacking
  130. 2015-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheapbytes has been slacking
  131. 2015-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] in memorial
  132. 2015-11-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] security and tracking in the land of terrorism
  133. 2015-11-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] just a plug for our friend Amy
  134. 2015-11-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] private reusable rocket is a success
  135. 2015-11-25 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheapbytes has been slacking
  136. 2015-11-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] [conspire] CIA chief Brennan hints new gov't
  137. 2015-11-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Middle east Analysis
  138. 2015-11-26 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] [conspire] CIA chief Brennan hints new gov't
  139. 2015-11-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Thanksgiving Present
  140. 2015-11-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] [conspire] CIA chief Brennan hints new gov't
  141. 2015-11-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] A message for Thanksgiving
  142. 2015-11-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Eight bucks, no kidding!
  143. 2015-11-26 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Five bucks, no kidding!
  144. 2015-11-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Compiler Theory Class
  145. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Nice Jewish Girl
  146. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Larry Wall on Haskell and Java
  147. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Apollo
  148. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Sil;licon Valley Republicans
  149. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] new way to get interviews only through skype ??
  150. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] The New Linux Journal in an app happy world
  151. 2015-11-27 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheapbytes has been slacking
  152. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Five bucks, no kidding!
  153. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Systems Administrator Position
  154. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheapbytes has been slacking
  155. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] losing the internet
  156. 2015-11-27 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheapbytes has been slacking
  157. 2015-11-27 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Five bucks, no kidding!
  158. 2015-11-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] The New Linux Journal in an app happy world
  159. 2015-11-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] The New Linux Journal in an app happy world
  160. 2015-11-28 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] losing the internet
  161. 2015-11-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Decent Vorbis Radio
  162. 2015-11-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Movie of the week
  163. 2015-11-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] 30 thousand bucks, no kidding!
  164. 2015-11-30 From: "Mancini, Sabin (DFS)" <Sabin.Mancini-at-dfs.ny.gov> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] ???? = question ? So what is the question (s) ?
  165. 2015-11-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Domination

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