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DATE 2014-02-01

HANGOUT

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Key: Value:

Key: Value:

MESSAGE
DATE 2014-02-22
FROM Ruben
SUBJECT Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Snowden
http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/23/snowden-answers-our-burning-data-collection-question-whats-the-worst-that-could-happen/

National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden is answering the
Internet’s burning questions .
Surprisingly, he was even gracious enough to answer my question: “What’s
the worst and most realistic harm from bulk collection of data? Why do
you think it outweighs national security?”

Snowden, who was granted protection in Russia from American prosecution,
has been somewhat press-averse, only holding a few select media
interviews. This time, he went directly to netizens to respond to
President Obama’s big national security speech last week
.

I posted the full response Snowden gave me below. In essence, he argues
that the government’s bulk storage of our digital lives causes
self-censorship and opens up the potential for severe abuse.

“Study after study has show that human behavior changes when we know
we’re being watched. Under observation, we act less free, which means we
effectively *are* less free,” he wrote.

He also notes that mass-spying, “enables a capability called
“retroactive investigation,” where once you come to the government’s
attention, they’ve got a very complete record of your daily activity
going back, under current law, often as far as five years.”

I generally think Snowden is right, but the problem with his answer is
that it doesn’t help us weigh these harms against the possibility of
stopping a terrorist. There will most definitely be government abuse and
Americans have already started censoring themselves. On the other hand,
in the next 30 years, it’s possible this system could prevent one or two
terrorists attacks, potentially saving dozens of lives and billions in
economic losses.

As far as I’ve been able to find
,
the available “studies” that Snowden alludes to are only moderately
helpful. For instance, one experimental study

found that pervasively monitored participants were less likely to engage
conversations that were neutral or critical of their peers. Personally,
I do find myself watching my words over email since Snowden leaked the
documents, despite the fact that the NSA doesn’t care much about me.

The idea of pervasive surveillance has been popular at least since
hipster god-father and post-modern idol, philosopher Michel Foucault
conceptualized the problems of an all-seeing authority that could
randomly spy on individuals, ominously known as the Panopticon
.

In practice, America’s former colonial master, the British, have had a
public version of the Panopticon since the 1970?s, with their
Closed-Circuit TV
system
(CCTV). CCTV does stop some crime, though it still happens. Many
citizens simply forget that they’re being watched; It appears that
humans cannot act on being paranoid 24/7.

In other cases, websites that offer more privacy
,
such as the Duck Duck Go search engine, have seen a spike in traffic.
So, Snowden is correct, some people do change their behavior.

But, what is the actual impact of this behavior change? We still get to
vote (and so do the British). There is certainly no end to criticisms of
President Obama or anyone else in our government. Even if we watch our
words, I haven’t noticed a difference in our democracy, for better or worse.

As to the government abuse of records, retroactively: yes, that’s a
serious concern, which President Obama acknowledged in his last speech.
Historically, our government likes to maintain hit lists and rogue
agents like to abuse their powers for personal gain. It’s probably true
that no system will ever be secure from the irrationality of a scorned
lover
.

Here the impacts are much more tangible. In the past, whistleblowers
have had a major impact on the course of US history. Daniel Ellsberg’s
release of the /Pentagon Papers/
hastened the military
withdrawal from Vietnam and saved many (many) lives. If we’re comparing
body counts, it is as likely that the government could shut up a
whistleblower who would otherwise stop a corrupt government initiative,
as it is the number of those who could be the victims of terrorism.

Right now, The NSA debate has been maddeningly theoretical. So, here’s
where I think everyone can agree with Snowden and why he is, in fact, a
national hero. Americans cannot make a democratically informed decision
without more information on the effectiveness of mass spying. As Snowden
concludes, “it should be the result of public decision rather than
closed conference.”

The more people examine classified evidence
,
the less they are convinced the NSA’s programs have been worthwhile.
Large organizations, especially hierarchical ones like the federal
government, as disturbingly susceptible to “group think
“, where dissenters are
actively shunned and groups converge on an idea that often ends up being
stupid (i.e. the Bay of Pigs disaster
).

The intelligence community needs a lot more critics, especially ones who
are specifically tasked with protecting civil liberties. As I predicted
,
under any reasonable scenario of broader oversight, bulk collection of
data, as we know it, will change. Since authorities will have to
convince a lot more skeptics, the burden of proof will fall more on the
NSA, and ultimately limit their reach.

If that happens, we can thank one person and one alone: Edward Snowden.

Read Snowden’s response in full, below and the rest of his live Q&A here
.

“The worst and happening-right-now harm of bulk collection — which
again, is a euphemism for mass surveillance — is two-fold.

The first is the chilling effect, which is well-understood. Study
after study has show that human behavior changes when we know we’re
being watched. Under observation, we act less free, which means we
effectively *are* less free.

The second, less understood but far more sinister effect of these
classified programs, is that they effectively create “permanent
records” of our daily activities, even in the absence of any
wrongdoing on our part. This enables a capability called
“retroactive investigation,” where once you come to the government’s
attention, they’ve got a very complete record of your daily activity
going back, under current law, often as far as five years. You might
not remember where you went to dinner on June 12th 2009, but the
government does.
The power these records represent can’t be overstated. In fact,
researchers have referred to this sort of data gathering as
resulting in “databases of ruin,” where harmful and embarrassing
details exist about even the most innocent individuals. The fact
that these records are gathered without the government having any
reasonable suspicion or probable cause justifying the seizure of
data is so divorced from the domain of reason as to be incapable of
ever being made lawful at all, and this view was endorsed as
recently as today by the federal government’s Privacy and Civil
Liberties Oversight board.

Fundamentally, a society in which the pervasive monitoring of the
sum of civil activity becomes routine is turning from the traditions
of liberty toward what is an inherently illiberal infrastructure of
preemptive investigation, a sort of quantified state where the least
of actions are measured for propriety. I don’t seek to pass judgment
in favor or against such a state in the short time I have here, only
to declare that it is not the one we inherited, and should we as a
society embrace it, it should be the result of public decision
rather than closed conference.”

  1. 2014-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] video programs
  2. 2014-02-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Hiring a Linux SysAdmin or Jr.
  3. 2014-02-05 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] SUSE glitches
  4. 2014-02-05 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] SUSE glitches
  5. 2014-02-05 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] SUSE glitches
  6. 2014-02-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] not physically possible
  7. 2014-02-05 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] not physically possible
  8. 2014-02-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] not physically possible
  9. 2014-02-06 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] not physically possible
  10. 2014-02-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ironman linux
  11. 2014-02-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ironman linux
  12. 2014-02-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Laptop Deals
  13. 2014-02-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Kiner is dead
  14. 2014-02-06 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Kiner is dead
  15. 2014-02-06 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ironman linux
  16. 2014-02-06 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ironman linux
  17. 2014-02-12 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] aging and work
  18. 2014-02-12 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] aging and work
  19. 2014-02-12 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Snow (Was: Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] SUSE glitches)
  20. 2014-02-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Suse 13.1
  21. 2014-02-13 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Suse 13.1
  22. 2014-02-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Suse 13.1
  23. 2014-02-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Suse 13.1
  24. 2014-02-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] The Limits of Free Speach
  25. 2014-02-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Focus on Robots
  26. 2014-02-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Focus on Robots
  27. 2014-02-14 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Focus on Robots
  28. 2014-02-14 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Focus on Robots
  29. 2014-02-14 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Focus on Robots
  30. 2014-02-16 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [announce-at-lists.isoc-ny.org: [isoc-ny] VIDEO: Bruce Schneier - NSA
  31. 2014-02-16 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Math Class
  32. 2014-02-17 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] combining text files
  33. 2014-02-18 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] combining text files
  34. 2014-02-18 Kevin Mark <kevin.mark-at-verizon.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] combining text files
  35. 2014-02-18 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [uri-at-bruck.co.il: [Israel.pm] Perl position in Petakh Tiqwah]
  36. 2014-02-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] linux terminals
  37. 2014-02-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] linux laptops
  38. 2014-02-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] combining text files
  39. 2014-02-21 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] combining text files
  40. 2014-02-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] combining text files
  41. 2014-02-22 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore
  42. 2014-02-22 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] farm animals and extermination camps
  43. 2014-02-22 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Privacy, what privacy
  44. 2014-02-22 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Bounty Hunters
  45. 2014-02-22 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Robot Wars
  46. 2014-02-22 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Government regulation of Privacy
  47. 2014-02-22 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Snowden
  48. 2014-02-22 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Monday and the spying is good
  49. 2014-02-22 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] jobs
  50. 2014-02-22 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] jobs
  51. 2014-02-22 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fwd: [Israel.pm] F5 Networks is hiring
  52. 2014-02-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] The internet as you know is on its last leg
  53. 2014-02-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [list-at-nysun.com: Mr. X Returns ? And Makes a Confession]
  54. 2014-02-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] affordable healthcare scam
  55. 2014-02-27 From: "Redpill" <red.pill-at-verizon.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] affordable healthcare scam
  56. 2014-02-27 From: "Redpill" <red.pill-at-verizon.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] affordable healthcare scam
  57. 2014-02-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] max size of tar
  58. 2014-02-27 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] max size of tar
  59. 2014-02-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] max size of tar
  60. 2014-02-27 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] max size of tar
  61. 2014-02-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] max size of tar
  62. 2014-02-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] max size of tar
  63. 2014-02-27 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] max size of tar
  64. 2014-02-27 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] max size of tar
  65. 2014-02-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] max size of tar
  66. 2014-02-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] max size of tar
  67. 2014-02-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] max size of tar

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