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DATE 2005-05-01

HANGOUT

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Key: Value:

Key: Value:

MESSAGE
DATE 2005-05-11
FROM From: "Inker, Evan"
SUBJECT Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Opposing Views: The Debate Over The H-1B Visa Program
Opposing Views: The Debate Over The H-1B Visa Program
URL:
http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=162800315
The debate over the H-1B visa program heats back up as the government gets
ready to accept applications for 20,000 more foreign workers

By Eric Chabrow, InformationWeek
May 9, 2005

Flip a coin. The way you call it says a lot about how you see the threats to
an IT-intensive U.S. economy. Heads, and the risk is a looming shortfall of
talent, as Microsoft founder Bill Gates and many industry leaders contend,
and the country needs to import expertise or expand abroad to find it.
Tails, and the risk is underestimating the U.S. workforce, leaving veteran
tech pros unemployed or underemployed while companies hire foreign nationals
to save on salaries, thus discouraging people from entering the field. In
this debate, there's little chance of the coin landing on its edge.

This week, the government starts accepting applications to let 20,000
additional foreigners with graduate degrees from U.S. schools work in the
country under the H-1B visa program. The government already granted 65,000
visas this year to workers who employers deem "high skill," about one-third
of whom are employed in computer-related fields.

Information Builders Inc., a 30-year-old New York software company, has 50
to 60 H-1B employees, mostly programmers, among its 1,750 employees. CEO
Gerald Cohen is a strong proponent of H-1B visas, saying sending work
offshore damages U.S. workers more than the H-1B program, because wages paid
abroad are far lower than those offered here. The company offshores some
quality-assurance work to save money, Cohen says, but pays its H-1B
employees prevailing U.S. wages. With IT unemployment this past year dipping
below 4%, most pros who look hard--and are willing to update their skills or
perhaps relocate--should be able to find well-paying jobs, he contends. And
Cohen believes employers should be able to hire whomever they find best
qualified for the job, regardless of nationality, if they pay market
salaries. "Anytime you can get the best people with the brightest minds, why
not let them emigrate to the United States?" he asks.

Late last month at a gathering at the Library of Congress, Gates said
Microsoft isn't finding an adequate labor pool in the United States. "Anyone
who's got the education and the experience, they're not out there
unemployed," he said. That kind of pressure from business leaders convinced
Congress to add 20,000 jobs to the 65,000 annual H-1B visa cap. Aggravating
the situation, proponents of H-1B assert, is a sharp decline in enrollment
in college and university IT programs. Enrollment in these programs has
declined by more than 50% in the past five years, according to the Society
for Information Management.

The enrollment decrease means there are fewer younger IT pros to hire, and
H-1B helps fill the void: 65% of H-1B visa holders are between 25 and 34.
And employers appear to be paying them well. An 18- to 30-year-old systems
analyst/programmer from overseas earned a median salary of $54,500, a 2003
Government Accountability Office study found--$10,000 more than an American
counterpart. Forty-two percent of H-1B visa recipients came from countries
not associated with low wages: European Union countries, Canada, Japan,
Australia, and Israel, according to 2003 data, the most recent available.
India accounted for 27%.

Yet critics contend that the H-1B program lets employers pursue younger
workers who'll work for less at the expense of qualified, older U.S.
workers. An American systems analyst/programmer, age 31 to 50, holding an
advanced degree earned a median salary of $87,000 a year--40% more than that
younger H-1B worker, the same GAO study found.

Ken Jinks feels caught in that pinch. The Huntsville, Ala., software
engineer considers himself underemployed and blames the H-1B visa program.
Jobless for a year in the late 1990s, the 47-year-old father of two took a
job six years ago with a local company, where he still works, at 80% of his
former salary. In the meantime, he says, the company has hired at least
three younger foreign workers through the H-1B program for higher-ranking
software architecture posts for which he thinks he and other Americans were
qualified. "That does make it difficult for someone like me, in this
business for 21 years," he says.

On average over the past four quarters ended in March, 131,000 people who
consider themselves computer professionals--3.7% of the workforce--were
unemployed, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Would those workers find jobs if the federal government issued fewer H-1B
visas? U.S. citizens compete to some extent with foreign workers, whether on
U.S. soil through H-1B visas or through offshore offices. Developing nations
such as China and India will be a source of skilled technology talent,
whether through immigration or offshore outsourcing, concludes a study of
the fastest-growing IT companies around the world, released last week by
consulting firm Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu. "Business leaders will press their
national governments to loosen restrictions on foreign immigration,"
according to the study, "while continuing to shift more and more work
offshore."

Employers worry about having enough talent, and that the best and brightest
won't see the United States as the place to work. Employees worry about
driving down U.S. wages. As the coin spins in the air, the question again
comes down to how you call it. Do you worry more about the foreign workers
who come here--or the ones who stay home?


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  1. 2005-05-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fw: [wwwac] Monday 2 May 2005 NYC Committee on Technology in Government: Telecommunications Infrastructure and Economic Development
  2. 2005-05-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fw: [wwwac] Monday 2 May 2005 NYC Committee on Technology in Government: Telecommunications Infrastructure and Economic Development
  3. 2005-05-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Bitkeeper Contravery
  4. 2005-05-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Linus announced new tool for version control
  5. 2005-05-01 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fw: [wwwac] Monday 2 May 2005 NYC Committee on Technology in Government: Telecommunications Infrastructure and Economic Development
  6. 2005-05-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] DMCA Boarder War
  7. 2005-05-02 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Microsoft Reaches Out to Open-Source Community
  8. 2005-05-02 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Microsoft Reaches Out to Open-Source Community
  9. 2005-05-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ssl for pop3
  10. 2005-05-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ssl for pop3
  11. 2005-05-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] New Wireless phone
  12. 2005-05-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Old Hood is going digital subway
  13. 2005-05-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] virus security
  14. 2005-05-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] nylxs.com email addresses
  15. 2005-05-04 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] FW: LinuxWorld Summit NYC: Explore the possibilities. Register to
  16. 2005-05-04 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fw: Personal Liberties in the Age of Terrorism, May 13 - Free for BC Students!
  17. 2005-05-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Last Months Board Meeting Minutes
  18. 2005-05-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Last Months Board Meeting Minutes
  19. 2005-05-03 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] City Is Backing Makeover for Decaying Brooklyn
  20. 2005-05-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Real Time Blackhole sites
  21. 2005-05-03 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Real Time Blackhole sites
  22. 2005-05-03 Matthew <mph-at-dorsai.org> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Real Time Blackhole sites
  23. 2005-05-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Real Time Blackhole sites
  24. 2005-05-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] HP AMD 64 bit Laptop for about $1000
  25. 2005-05-03 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fwd: idiots
  26. 2005-05-03 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fwd: idiots
  27. 2005-05-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] City Is Backing Makeover for Decaying
  28. 2005-05-03 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] City Is Backing Makeover for Decaying Brooklyn
  29. 2005-05-03 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] City Is Backing Makeover for Decaying Brooklyn Waterfront
  30. 2005-05-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] More on the Free Linux Distro
  31. 2005-05-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Only Free Distro
  32. 2005-05-04 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] FW: LinuxWorld Summit NYC: Explore the possibilities. Register to day.
  33. 2005-05-04 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Old Hood is going digital subway
  34. 2005-05-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] FW: LinuxWorld Summit NYC: Explore the
  35. 2005-05-05 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Ruth email me please
  36. 2005-05-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: New York Interop City - June 14th, 2005
  37. 2005-05-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] rant: Open Office "help"
  38. 2005-05-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] rant: Open Office "help"
  39. 2005-05-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] rant: Open Office "help"
  40. 2005-05-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] rant: Open Office "help"
  41. 2005-05-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Jobs
  42. 2005-05-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Spam to end all spam
  43. 2005-05-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Spam to end all spam
  44. 2005-05-08 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] FW: THIRTY LINES TO MAKE YOU SMILE]]
  45. 2005-05-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] CUPS is JUNK
  46. 2005-05-09 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] CUPS is JUNK
  47. 2005-05-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Board Meeting
  48. 2005-05-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] CUPS is JUNK
  49. 2005-05-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Vocational Training Bill Passes
  50. 2005-05-09 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] CUPS is JUNK
  51. 2005-05-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] CUPS is JUNK
  52. 2005-05-09 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] CUPS is JUNK
  53. 2005-05-11 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Opposing Views: The Debate Over The H-1B Visa Program
  54. 2005-05-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Opposing Views: The Debate Over The H-1B
  55. 2005-05-11 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Opposing Views: The Debate Over The H-1B Vi sa
  56. 2005-05-11 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Opposing Views: The Debate Over The H-1B Visa
  57. 2005-05-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Opposing Views: The Debate Over The H-1B Visa Program
  58. 2005-05-11 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Opposing Views: The Debate Over The H-1B Visa
  59. 2005-05-11 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Opposing Views: The Debate Over The H-1B Visa Program
  60. 2005-05-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [leekc-at-us.ibm.com: Invitation - NY June 21- IBM IT lifecycle management competitive briefing]
  61. 2005-05-12 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Opposing Views: The Debate Over The H-1B Visa Program
  62. 2005-05-12 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Novell loses another executive
  63. 2005-05-12 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Opposing Views: The Debate Over The H-1B Visa Program
  64. 2005-05-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] I leave this for your discussion ..
  65. 2005-05-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Novell loses another executive
  66. 2005-05-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Opposing Views: The Debate Over The H-1B
  67. 2005-05-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [hangout] Arafat Dead - and the beat goes on..
  68. 2005-05-12 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[NYLXS_-_HANGOUT]_Opposing_Views:_The_Debate?=
  69. 2005-05-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving off of SuSE
  70. 2005-05-12 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Null modem
  71. 2005-05-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Null modem
  72. 2005-05-12 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Null modem
  73. 2005-05-12 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Null modem
  74. 2005-05-12 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving off of SuSE
  75. 2005-05-12 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving off of SuSE
  76. 2005-05-12 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Null modem
  77. 2005-05-12 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving off of SuSE
  78. 2005-05-12 From: "Jared Martin" <jmartin-at-dglaw.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving off of SuSE
  79. 2005-05-12 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving off of SuSE
  80. 2005-05-12 Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews-at-isc.org> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] I have been patient.
  81. 2005-05-13 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] IBM backs Firefox in-houseBy Martin LaMonica, CNET News.com
  82. 2005-05-13 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] IBM backs Firefox in-houseBy Martin LaMonica, CNET News.com
  83. 2005-05-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] bruce.lai-at-council.nyc.ny.us: Upcoming hearings by the Committee on Technology in Government of the New York City Council (as of 5.13.05).
  84. 2005-05-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Board Meeting Reminder
  85. 2005-05-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Taking a look back prior to 9-11
  86. 2005-05-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Real Time Blackhole sites
  87. 2005-05-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Hope this still works
  88. 2005-05-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Open Meeting: Freedom-IT Scholarship fund
  89. 2005-05-15 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Business
  90. 2005-05-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Membership and Fund Raising/ Bryant Park
  91. 2005-05-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Business
  92. 2005-05-15 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Business
  93. 2005-05-15 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] RE: Business - NOT SPAM!
  94. 2005-05-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Membership and Fund Raising/ Bryant Park
  95. 2005-05-15 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] RE: Business - NOT SPAM!
  96. 2005-05-16 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Membership and Fund Raising/ Bryant Park
  97. 2005-05-16 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Hyper-Threading Vulnerability
  98. 2005-05-16 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Nylxs website
  99. 2005-05-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: Re: [info] NYLXS]
  100. 2005-05-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] RE: [hangout] Ruben, "Star Wars" tickets are on sale now on
  101. 2005-05-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] RE: [hangout] Ruben, "Star Wars" tickets are
  102. 2005-05-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Healthcare Information Technology
  103. 2005-05-17 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Star Wars
  104. 2005-05-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Star Wars
  105. 2005-05-17 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Star Wars
  106. 2005-05-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] RE: [hangout] Ruben, "Star Wars" tickets are
  107. 2005-05-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: Re: [info] NYLXS]
  108. 2005-05-17 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Web sites: Linux Distribution Chooser
  109. 2005-05-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] the internet has become useless
  110. 2005-05-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Back to school
  111. 2005-05-17 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] SUSE 9.3 Disks
  112. 2005-05-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] SUSE 9.3 Disks
  113. 2005-05-17 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] SUSE 9.3 Disks
  114. 2005-05-17 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Back to school
  115. 2005-05-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Back to school
  116. 2005-05-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Back to school
  117. 2005-05-17 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] SUSE 9.3 Disks
  118. 2005-05-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] SUSE 9.3 Disks
  119. 2005-05-17 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] SUSE 9.3 Disks
  120. 2005-05-17 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] SUSE 9.3 Disks
  121. 2005-05-17 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] SUSE 9.3 Disks
  122. 2005-05-17 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Back to school
  123. 2005-05-17 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Back to school
  124. 2005-05-17 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fw: Don't forget to take advantage of Novell's great offer on shopNovell
  125. 2005-05-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Healthcare Information Technology
  126. 2005-05-17 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Back to school
  127. 2005-05-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Back to school
  128. 2005-05-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] FREEDOM-IT MEETING - Tomorrow
  129. 2005-05-17 From: "J.E. Cripps" <cycmn-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Back to school
  130. 2005-05-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Back to school
  131. 2005-05-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Brooklyn Centric News
  132. 2005-05-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] And while we are talking about Brooklyn College...
  133. 2005-05-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Free Pass to computer expo
  134. 2005-05-18 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Board Minutes May 11 2005
  135. 2005-05-18 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Board Minutes May 11 2005
  136. 2005-05-18 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Board Minutes May 11 2005
  137. 2005-05-18 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Board Minutes May 11 2005
  138. 2005-05-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Healthcare Information Technology
  139. 2005-05-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] Dvorak's article on Linux Community
  140. 2005-05-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn101-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] fsfsffsfsd
  141. 2005-05-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn101-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] fsfsdfasdfsd
  142. 2005-05-19 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fw: [Politics] Lost
  143. 2005-05-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Sendmail Relaying
  144. 2005-05-20 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: FW: Returned mail: delivery problems encountered
  145. 2005-05-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Minutes of Grant proposal committee 5-17-05
  146. 2005-05-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Minutes of Grant proposal committee 5-17-05
  147. 2005-05-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Freedom-IT Report
  148. 2005-05-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Freedom-IT Report
  149. 2005-05-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Flu preparations
  150. 2005-05-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Transistor Engineering
  151. 2005-05-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Anyone ever hear of this company?
  152. 2005-05-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn101-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Star Wars Party
  153. 2005-05-23 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Student Interest in Computer Science Plummets
  154. 2005-05-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Student Interest in Computer Science Plummets
  155. 2005-05-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Student Interest in Computer Science Plummets
  156. 2005-05-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Student Interest in Computer Science Plummets
  157. 2005-05-23 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Token Booths Shut Down At Eight Stations In Manhattan, Brooklyn
  158. 2005-05-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn101-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] su security
  159. 2005-05-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: refreshing
  160. 2005-05-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Real Time Blackhole sites
  161. 2005-05-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: In case you could use someone
  162. 2005-05-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Anyone know who IBM is using to teach teachers about GNU Systems?
  163. 2005-05-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] For Billy
  164. 2005-05-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Star Wars Night Tomorrow
  165. 2005-05-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Google Job in NY
  166. 2005-05-25 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Suse and floppy disks
  167. 2005-05-25 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fw: Re: [wwwac] Court rules that presence of encryption software may be viewed as evidence of criminal intent.
  168. 2005-05-25 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Netscape 8.0 Requires Internet Explorer
  169. 2005-05-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Suse and floppy disks
  170. 2005-05-25 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Suse and floppy disks
  171. 2005-05-25 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Netscape 8.0 Requires Internet Explorer
  172. 2005-05-26 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fw: SpiderTools Linux Training Savings
  173. 2005-05-26 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fw: [Politics] Monsanto's confidential research finds that GM foods mess up rats
  174. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  175. 2005-05-26 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Fw: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  176. 2005-05-26 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  177. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: Fw: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  178. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: Fw: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  179. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Star Wars triggers P2P network crackdown
  180. 2005-05-26 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  181. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Star Wars triggers P2P network crackdown
  182. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  183. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  184. 2005-05-26 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  185. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  186. 2005-05-26 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Treo 650
  187. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Copyright Myth and the BSA
  188. 2005-05-26 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  189. 2005-05-26 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Treo 650
  190. 2005-05-26 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  191. 2005-05-26 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  192. 2005-05-26 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  193. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  194. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  195. 2005-05-26 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  196. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  197. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  198. 2005-05-26 From: "Jared T. Martin" <jmartin-at-dglaw.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] How do I edit my subscription?
  199. 2005-05-26 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  200. 2005-05-26 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Treo 650
  201. 2005-05-26 Michael E George <meg7-at-nyu.edu> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Logo and motto
  202. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Logo and motto
  203. 2005-05-26 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS mission statement
  204. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS mission statement
  205. 2005-05-26 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Donation page on website.
  206. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Logo and motto
  207. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Donation page on website.
  208. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Prganizational Structure -
  209. 2005-05-26 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Donation page on website.
  210. 2005-05-26 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Logo and motto
  211. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Logo and motto
  212. 2005-05-26 From: "Derrick H. Lewis" <lewisdj-at-bc.edu> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Website
  213. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Website
  214. 2005-05-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] I think this was the constitution minus a slight change we had to
  215. 2005-05-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: In case you could use someone
  216. 2005-05-27 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  217. 2005-05-27 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Nokia's tablet
  218. 2005-05-27 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Nokia's tablet
  219. 2005-05-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [CFSG-forum] Fwd: [refurbishers] New York City Electronics
  220. 2005-05-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [CFSG-forum] Fwd: [refurbishers] New York City Electronics
  221. 2005-05-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [CFSG-forum] Fwd: [refurbishers] New York City Electronics
  222. 2005-05-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Fwd: Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [CFSG-forum] Fwd: [refurbishers]
  223. 2005-05-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [CFSG-forum] Fwd: [refurbishers] New
  224. 2005-05-27 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[NYLXS_-_HANGOUT]_Re:_[CFSG-forum]_Fwd:_[ref?=
  225. 2005-05-27 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] I want a big 1973 Buick LeSabre
  226. 2005-05-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [CFSG-forum] Fwd:
  227. 2005-05-27 Michael E George <meg7-at-nyu.edu> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT]Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [CFSG-forum]
  228. 2005-05-27 From: "rc" <ray-pub-at-rcn.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Nokia's tablet
  229. 2005-05-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Nokia's tablet
  230. 2005-05-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Nokia's tablet
  231. 2005-05-27 From: "rc" <ray-pub-at-rcn.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Nokia's tablet
  232. 2005-05-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Nokia's tablet
  233. 2005-05-27 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Nokia's tablet
  234. 2005-05-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Nokia's tablet
  235. 2005-05-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Nokia's tablet
  236. 2005-05-28 From: "rc" <ray-pub-at-rcn.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Nokia's tablet
  237. 2005-05-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: [Hardhats-members] Re: Welcome!] Healthcare software under
  238. 2005-05-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Nokia's tablet
  239. 2005-05-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Lccal News in Brooklyn
  240. 2005-05-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Sunday Server Maintence Agenda
  241. 2005-05-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Jobs
  242. 2005-05-29 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Sunday Server Maintence Agenda
  243. 2005-05-29 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Nokia's tablet
  244. 2005-05-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Sunday Server Maintence Agenda
  245. 2005-05-29 David Etengoff <edtechmdy-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] please remove my E-mail
  246. 2005-05-29 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Sunday Server Maintence Agenda
  247. 2005-05-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Sunday Server Maintence Agenda
  248. 2005-05-29 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Sunday Server Maintence Agenda
  249. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Web Server Status
  250. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Updates and Discussion
  251. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [Hardhats-members] Re: CPRS Connection Problem
  252. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: Re: [Hardhats-members] == CPRS Demo ==]
  253. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: Re: [Hardhats-members] Re: CPRS Connection Problem]
  254. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: Re: [Hardhats-members] Re: CPRS Connection Problem]
  255. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: Re: [Hardhats-members] Re: CPRS Connection Problem]
  256. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: Re: [Hardhats-members] Re: CPRS Connection Problem]
  257. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: Re: [Hardhats-members] Re: CPRS Connection Problem]
  258. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: Re: [Hardhats-members] Re: CPRS Connection Problem]
  259. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: Re: [Hardhats-members] Re: CPRS Connection Problem]
  260. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: Re: [Hardhats-members] Re: CPRS Connection Problem]
  261. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: Re: [Hardhats-members] Re: CPRS Connection Problem]
  262. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: Re: [Hardhats-members] Re: CPRS Connection Problem]
  263. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: Re: [Hardhats-members] Re: CPRS Connection Problem]
  264. 2005-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] RMS on software patents
  265. 2005-05-31 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Novell acquires Immunix to enhance SuSe Linux security
  266. 2005-05-31 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Nokia allows Linux Kernel to use their patents

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