MESSAGE
| DATE | 2004-09-02 |
| FROM | From: "Steve Milo"
|
| SUBJECT | Subject: [hangout] Re: Advocacy vs. Zealotry vs. Who Cares?!? Was RE: [NMLUG] Re:Linux Advocacy FAQ is NOT Linux Advocacy Maxim (RobertDelahunt) (Daniel Lark)
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The whole concept of comparing people who strongly believe in Linux over
microsoft to zealots is just ridiculous.
Personally I would not stake my professional integrity on anything that has
to do with microsoft. Ms products simply *do not* win any point when
compared to Linux. When someone asks me well if I find this software for ms
and there is no equivalent how do I do that in Linux? I tell them 'you have
to think about what it is you want to do'. More often than not you can see
the gears start turning. The other person starts to quickly realize that
they quite possibly have control over their own hardware. Wow what a
surprise! What if I want to burn a CD where do I get that software? The
software is there. Is it extra? No, it is there, you paid for the software
when you bought Suse 9.1 Professional. What if I have a problem who do I go
to? What kind of problem do you think you will have? I reply. Well, what
if it doesnt recognize my hardware? What hardware do you have that you
think Linux wont recognize? My ZIP drive. It will recognize it.
Dollar for dollar and pound for pound the average user wants (or should I
say more appropriately has been limited by microsoft) to simply do word
processing or surf the web.
If youre having this kind of discussion with a Computer Science major it is
possible that that CompSci major should change his or her intended
profession. Linux does absolutely nothing that requires any form of black
magic. Many of you know that there are tons of Comp Sci majors (I call them
microsoft majors) who only want to know how to operate an application and
thats it. They dont want to think about system architecture, memory,
registers, hard drives (how many of you heard a comp sci major say 'whats a
hard drive?').
In fact some of the people I work with are student compsci majors. They say
they heard about Linux but are afraid to try it. I tell them to just
download it and try it.
It really confounds me sometimes why so many people go into computer science
when they have absolutely no business doing so. They dont want to know
hardware, they dont even want to know software. Just an application or two
and they want to live in the false sense of security that their sales rep
gives them. Part of it is because that there instructors who have no
business being compsci teachers. They put up a website or two then the good
ole' boy network picks em up and they are considered a professional.
Calling someone a zealot because they see from their own personal experience
and those of others that there is a better product out there is just
foolish. I dont know what this nonesense about 'cruel world' has anything
to do with anything. I bad mouth ms products every chance I get because
they have dominated and abused the free market system for long enough. The
product they have is just plain crap, up and down left and right. Crap.
There are good reasons why many IT infrastructures are moving to Linux.
Because GNU/Linux is grounded in sound computer science, the code is there
and can be tweaked. The licensing and policy's surrounding GNU/Linux
implemention fall back inline with reality not paranioa and attempt to
dominate a market and minds. Those of you who talk about Freedom and excuse
ms in the same breath have a shallow understanding of the term freedom. You
all think it is just freedom to choose or freedom to breath. No that is
insuficcient, it is freedom to persue intellectual discovery and
professional advancement. It is freedom to level the playing field in the
free market enterprise. It is freedom to have an impact on society where no
one is garuanteed a profit but anyone who tries is given an opportunity to
compete fairly and earn a living. Perhaps even amass a fortune through fair
business practices not by hijacking intellectual property.
So many of you just dont get it, you have all locked yourself in your little
corners in IT and shied away from any challenge to your professional
integrity.
Who cares? I care, and I make a point of getting whoever asks me to care.
The people who I work with who are compsci majors have seen Suse 9.1 on one
of the local machines. They cant get enough of it, it reconized the
network, the samba print server all the hardware. The graphics are crisp.
Microsoft should be worried and is going to need all the help it can get.
Does that garuantee the GNU/Linux future? No absolutely not. Can GNU/Linux
fail? Of course. The IT world is not necessarily moving to GNU/Linux as
much as it is moving away from proprietary software. If this trend
continues there will be more opportunities for real Computer Science
professionals. Corporations will be demanding better quality from
universities, they wont use proprietary software as a crutch.
Ms simply has *nothing* on Linux zero, it is all smoke and mirrors.
Hopefully ms will get beaten back into its corner in the northwest. I have
little doubt that the ignorance level of graduating Comp Sci majors will
decrease exponentially. Competition is good, very good. Market dominance
is poison to a society, simply poison. The worst thing a professional can
do is roll over on something he or she knows is inadequate. Many IT
professionals do so, but it seems they are doing so less now than before.
After installing Suse 9.1 the questions havent stopped. Questions and
questions and more questions. How do I do this, how do I do that. It is
absolutely amazing the transformation that takes place. That is of course
from people whose only interest in microsoft is just because its on their
desktop. Their fear subsides quickly and curiosity takes hold. Amazing.
One of the guys said that the only reason Linux doesnt suffer from viruses
is because its not on the desktop as predominantely as windows. I told him
two things. 1) I challenged him to find a virus that would crash the
machine we were using. I told him I would give him a dollar if he found one
that caused the machine to freeze or crash or do something it wasnt supposed
to be doing. 2) I told him that tons of corporations and the federal
government use Linux for their servers. You would think that by this time
someone would have found a way to compromise those machines.
Dont waste youre time reading 'how to win friends and influence people'.
That book is so infantile and lacks sophistication. If you want to learn
how to manipulate people then by all means.
But one is simply better off knowing their product and the ins and outs of
it including the politics and legalities involved. If one lacks the
intestinal fortitude then perhaps they should just choose a different
profession or a different way of doing something.
Steve M
'Comply' --RISafir 2004
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:10:24 -0600, Robert wrote
> On Wednesday 01 September 2004 05:49 pm, "Daniel Lark"
> wrote:
>
> > As one has had the pleasure of being chided for using the supposedly
> > derogatory term "M$" and being preached to about the proper way doing
> > "advocacy", I think these comments are shallow and very hollow. Let me
> > explain myself.
> >
> > 1. I am big advocate of FOSS. As a consultant, I actively encourage my
> > customers to pursue using FOSS wherever feasible. I don't preach the
> > evils of Microsoft (or really any vendor for that fact). I do give them
> > fair and honest comparisons of what the costs to fulfill their needs
> > are. Believe it or not, Microsoft sometimes wins on this.
>
> I agree.
>
> > 2. It has been my experience that some of the Microsoft bashers are some
> > of their biggest proponents. I don't know how many times I've heard
> > statements like "I wish Redmond would fix this" or "There's got to be a
> > better way." They bash FOSS only because they don't understand it.
> > However, they have no particular desire to change.
>
> Yes, but in a #nmlug channel, this would not be an issue: supposedly,
> we're all into Linux.
>
> > 3. If I'm on a mailing list, IRC channel, etc. that has Linux, Open
> > Source, etc. in its name, I can be reasonably sure that I am dealing
> > with people how are of the same mindset. So I call Microsoft Windows
> > "Windoze" or "Winblows". So I call Microsoft "M$" or "Micro$oft". I
> > expect this from people in these forums. Likewise they should expect it
> > from me.
>
> First off, just because everyone is doing it doesn't mean it's "right".
> Secondly, anyone who considers themselves a professional needs to
> act as such. There are a lot of "new" people out there that think
> that the way they have been all their life is acceptable, and it is
> not, in fact. It's mainly in delivery of their message, not their
> message itself. People need to start reading books like "How to win
> friends and influence people", etc. I am not a perfect adherent to
> this book or others, but it makes me try to attain a loftier goal of
> harmony with others rather than spit out my opinion not caring who
> hears me.
>
> > 4. I agree with the Advocacy FAQ/HOWTO in dealing with external
> > organizations. I do, however, expect that in a amongst internal
> > organizations (LUGs, mailing lists, etc.) I can speak my mind however I
> > see fit. Microsoft (amongst other entities) would try to seek ways to
> > limit speech about their products. The OSS community has been (and
> > hopefully always will be) a truly free speech zone. So we bash M$, who
> > cares? We bash each other. BSD user bash Linux. Debian users bash RH
> > users. In short, life's rough wear a cup!
>
> Yes, it goes on. I'm military, so I more than understand, and these
> comments do not phase me. However, just because it's a "cruel
> world" doesn't mean we have to allow it. We can accept it while
> striving to change it.
>
> > 5. If I am seeking advocacy, I would seek out things that are expressly
> > for this; an IRC channel like #nmlug_advocacy, newsgroups with advocacy
> > in their name, etc. I don't like nor appreciate reminding (pestering) me
> > of my so called "obligations" are. I cannot and will not accept this.
>
> Yes, that's understandable, but my channel does not have this goal
> in mind.
>
> > Mr. DeLaHunt, please feel advocate how you feel Linux should be
> > advocated. That is your right, and I would fight to the death to support
> > that. But understand, kicking people off of an IRC channel for saying
> > "Windoze" neither encourages advocacy or maintains decorum. All it shows
> > it that "I'm the channel op. If you don't like how I do things I'll kick
> > you from the channel." It's kind of hard to buy your form of advocacy
> > when your actions discourage free speech.
>
> That's Delahunt, and I don't know what the origin of it is, sadly.
> Also, please stop with the assumptions and generalizations. I have
> not yet kicked anyone off my channel. I'm asking people to try to
> abide by this loftier goal, but I'm not actively enforcing it to the
> degree you are assuming. Most of my time is spent "babysitting", as
> most ops understand. However, if I'm going to run a channel (which
> is the way it is now, unless the owners of this mailing list care to
> take ownership, which I will gladly give them), I don't want it
> ending up like (and pardon the examples, but it is all I understand
> right now) #debian or #gentoo or any other such channel that has
> angered me in the past. I encourage free speech, but I'm not going
> to put up with the teenager-ish hollow rants. I'm all for pointing
> out the strengths and weaknesses in any OS, Linux and Microsoft
> included. But to quote psychological ideas, this is similar to
> drawing a quarter. Most average people cannot draw on paper what
> say, a quarter looks like. However, hand them a penny and they
> easily recognize what it is.
>
> > That's just my $0.04 (adjusted for inflation).
> >
> > -dan
>
> I appreciate your discussion on this point.
>
> --
> " ... and are endowed by their CREATOR
> with certain unalienable rights ... "
> -- Declaration of Independence
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