MESSAGE
| DATE | 2004-01-16 |
| FROM | From:
|
| SUBJECT | RE: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
|
hey how is the idea of meeting at the retreat? ;). then we all can watch too. :)
Honestly guys, please take it easy. i started to read the thread because it proposed two
counter ideas and was interesting. because i am also readin the book called
"the art of unix programming" where in ESR writes interestingly about FOSS and OpenSource
history.
I thot you both would atleast provide some links to support it. but then it turned out soemthing else.
please lets sharpen our minds instead of the knives(if they are allowed at retreat) ;)
::akbar
On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:11 , Michael Richardson sent:
>
>No personal attacks or threats. The idea is to have a discussion, which can
>be done without resorting to unpleastaness. When possible please cite your
>sources.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Steve Milo [slavik914-at-rennlist.com','','','')">slavik914-at-rennlist.com]
>Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 8:29 AM
>To: Adam Kosmin
>Cc: hangout-at-nylxs.com
>Subject: Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
>
>
>Is that an indirect threat Adam?
>
>Steve M
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Adam Kosmin akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com>
>Date: Friday, January 16, 2004 8:18 am
>Subject: Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
>
>>
>> I'm looking forward to meeting you. When can we arrange that?
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>> Steve Milo (slavik914-at-rennlist.com) wrote:
>> " Obviously a sign of a small mind, when someone resorts to name
>> calling
>> " and insults.
>> "
>> " Steve M
>> "
>> " >
>> " > Steve,
>> " >
>> " > I've had enough of your spoon-fed crap. You're obviously an idiot.
>> " >
>> " > Adam
>> " >
>> " >
>> " > Steve Milo (slavik914-at-rennlist.com) wrote:
>> " > " > Steve Milo (slavik914-at-rennlist.com) wrote:
>> " > " > " > more functional, but it is not good enough because it
>> is
>> " > not
>> " > " > free
>> " > " > " > (as in
>> " > " > " > speech) and therefore, damages to our society's
>> ability to
>> " > " > " > collaborate,innovate, and protect our privacy.
>> " > " > "
>> " > " > " Actually, more functional is much more than good enough,
>> if
>> " > the
>> " > " > better
>> " > " > " more secure product is available from Microsoft then by
>> all
>> " > " > means it
>> " > " > " should be used.
>> " > " >
>> " > " > This is bullshit. This is exactly the kind of thinking
>> (common
>> " > to
>> " > " > peoplewho subscribe to the Open Source philosophy) that
>> " > threatens
>> " > " > the adoption
>> " > " > of Free Software and (if not stopped) will allow Microsoft
>> to
>> " > build" > whatever toll gates they desire upon the virtual
>> roads
>> " > that we use to
>> " > " > collaborate and communicate.
>> " > "
>> " > " Hey, if I'm the 'common person' who subscribes to the Open
>> " > Source
>> " > " philosphy thats sits fine with me. I know just a little
>> more
>> " > than the
>> " > " common person though. Sounds like you missed a chance to
>> " > convince this
>> " > " 'common person' of how to think.
>> " > "
>> " > " >
>> " > " > Not because it isn't 'free'..as in whatever. But
>> " > " > " because it does the job that is required of it. If the
>> Open
>> " > " > Source
>> " > " > " community can come along and create an equal or better
>> " > product
>> " > " > then that
>> " > " > " software has earned its positions.
>> " > " >
>> " > " > Free as in whatever? How can you not appreciate the
>> freedoms
>> " > " > granted by
>> " > " > the GPL? This stuff is critical and I'd expect anyone
>> " > subscribed
>> " > " > to this
>> " > " > list to be well versed in the benefits.
>> " > "
>> " > " I expect anyone who subscribes to this list to be not only
>> well
>> " > versed
>> " > " in the freedoms granted by the GPL. But to also have an
>> " > understanding
>> " > " of how the judicial and capitalist system of this country works.
>> " > "
>> " > " > If we are talking about widgets then
>> " > " > " the only thing that MS or any other proprietary company
>> is
>> " > " > guilty of is
>> " > " > " defending their products secrets. They haven't
>> infringed on
>> " > " > freedom of
>> " > " > " speech, they are using freedom to persue 'life and
>> liberty'.
>> " > If
>> " > " > MS were
>> " > " > " to go out and seek a court order to silence its critics
>> that
>> " > is
>> " > " > " infringing on freedom of speech. But as far as the
>> widget
>> " > is
>> " > " > concerned,
>> " > " > " MS has everyright to create its product, they can run
>> around
>> " > and
>> " > " > let
>> " > " > " their sales people tell you anything they want to get
>> their
>> " > " > product in
>> " > " > " your hands.
>> " > " >
>> " > " > I don't blame Microsoft for wanting world domination. I
>> blame
>> " > the
>> " > " > idiotswho aren't bright enough to choose a different path
>> and
>> " > who
>> " > " > are so
>> " > " > obsessed with fulfilling their own selfish short term
>> agendas
>> " > " > despite the
>> " > " > costs to innovation.
>> " > "
>> " > " Yeah, its called the cost of convenience. Many company's
>> are
>> " > willing to
>> " > " shell out a few extra bucks for convenience.
>> " > "
>> " > " You missed another chance to convince this 'idiot' to
>> believe
>> " > otherwise."
>> " > " But you also missed a whole other point, MS's 'strength'
>> lies
>> " > not in its
>> " > " product but in its marketing.
>> " > "
>> " > " >
>> " > " > The fault is not with MS when a network crashes due to a
>> " > " > " virus, but the IT director who chose to use MS. In turn
>> " > " > compromising
>> " > " > " the security of their organizations system. No, simply
>> " > because
>> " > " > MS is
>> " > " > " closed source is not a good enough reason to not
>> purchase
>> " > their
>> " > " > product
>> " > " > " and anyone in this day and age will tell you that.
>> " > " >
>> " > " >
>> " > " > No one who understands and agrees with the goals of the
>> Free
>> " > Software" > movement will tell me this crap.
>> " > "
>> " > " Yeah, and for the rest of the world they will buy what they
>> " > think works.
>> " > "
>> " > " Whether you realize it or not, your
>> " > " > statement and thinking has been fed to you by Open Source
>> friendly" > " > marketing departments. From where I'm sitting, I
>> see that this
>> " > is
>> " > " > goingto be a HUGE problem going forward.People are jumping
>> on
>> " > the
>> " > " > Linuxbandwagon for all the wrong reasons. It's like
>> inviting
>> " > " > foreigners to
>> " > " > come over to the United States of America without studying the
>> " > " > Constitution!!!
>> " > "
>> " > " Maybe you should tell your ancentry that came over on the
>> boat
>> " > to go
>> " > " back. Somehow I doubt they learned to appreciate the
>> " > Constitution
>> " > " before they hit these shores.
>> " > "
>> " > " Either way your sending mixed messages. One the one hand
>> you
>> " > want to
>> " > " close the borders off to any new comers, which by itself is
>> " > unAmerican.
>> " > " But on the other hand you state how anti American Microsoft
>> is,
>> " > an
>> " > " American company.
>> " > "
>> " > " Still more hypcritical is how you preach freedom of speech
>> but
>> " > you want
>> " > " to it cut off from people who dont agree with your point of
>> " > view. So am
>> " > " I to believe that freedom of speech applies only to those
>> who
>> " > think like
>> " > " you? If thats true why dont we all just get the first plane
>> to
>> " > North
>> " > " Korea, they will appreicate us there. Oh and that should
>> " > satisfy your
>> " > " requirment for joining on the 'Linux Bandwagon' too, they're
>> all
>> " > " elitists there also.
>> " > "
>> " > " >
>> " > " >
>> " > " > The reasons to go
>> " > " > " with Open Source is simply because its better. Its
>> better
>> " > on
>> " > " > price
>> " > " > " point, its better on security, its better on
>> maintenance,
>> " > its
>> " > " > better on
>> " > " > " support. Simply put, GNU/Linux/Open Source is just
>> better
>> " > and
>> " > " > for those
>> " > " > " patriotic souls, is so very American. Open Source got
>> its
>> " > start
>> " > " > in this
>> " > " > " country and is based on the same principles and values
>> that
>> " > were
>> " > " > used
>> " > " > " when this country was founded. But using a better
>> product
>> " > is
>> " > " > common
>> " > " > " sense. If MS creates a better OS than GNU/Linux I would
>> go
>> " > out
>> " > " > and buy
>> " > " > " it. But it doesnt make a better OS, it only has a
>> stronger
>> " > " > marketing
>> " > " > " machine. The problem with the Open Source community is
>> that
>> " > too
>> " > " > many
>> " > " > " people are hung up pining away at how MS is bad. We're
>> " > focusing
>> " > " > on all
>> " > " > " the wrong points, the focus has to be turned away from
>> MS
>> " > and
>> " > " > back onto
>> " > " > " Linux. If MS makes a better product thats fine the
>> problems
>> " > are
>> " > " > the
>> " > " > " limitations imposed on reverse engineering for a better
>> " > product.
>> " > " > The
>> " > " > " auto industry does it, the hardware manufacterers do it,
>> " > " > McDonalds does
>> " > " > " it. Everyone reverse engineers, its a normal patter of
>> " > critical
>> " > " > " thinking. But the DMCA law doesnt allow reverse
>> " > engineering,
>> " > " > not even
>> " > " > " to *not* make a profit.
>> " > " > "
>> " > " >
>> " > " > Obviously you know very little about the history of Open
>> " > Source since
>> " > " > you seem to think that it even has one. The term "Open
>> Source" is
>> " > " > nothing more than a recently created buzz term to sell
>> Free
>> " > " > Software to
>> " > " > people that don't have the capacity to understand the
>> moral
>> " > " > arguements of
>> " > " > the Free Software movement. That's it! (if you didn't get
>> that
>> " > last" > statement, read it over and over until it sinks in).
>> " > "
>> " > " Lets leave morals in the gutter where they belong. Get off
>> your
>> " > high
>> " > " horse for a few moments. There are times when no one really
>> " > cares about
>> " > " your strong point of view peppered with curse words and
>> indirect
>> " > " insults. It becomes tiring and annoying and counter productive.
>> " > "
>> " > " As far as history goes, BSD seems to have been around for
>> quite
>> " > a few
>> " > " years. GNU/Linux has been making some pretty strong
>> inroads.
>> " > As far as
>> " > " I can recall they're both Open Source..or maybe more
>> properly
>> " > open
>> " > " source. Dont bother correcting me, I'm not interested in
>> your
>> " > point of
>> " > " view peppered with inderect insults.
>> " > "
>> " > " >
>> " > " > Adam Kosmin
>> " > "
>> " > " Overall you have made an interesting effort to pervert what
>> I
>> " > was trying
>> " > " to say. You have managed to completely mangle anything I
>> was
>> " > trying to
>> " > " say. While at the same time trying to insult me inderectly.
>> " > "
>> " > "
>> " > " Steve M
>> " > "
>> " > "
>> " >
>> " > --
>> " >
>> " > "Yes, Your Honor. Now, where we are so far, in at least my
>> " > line of reasoning, is I want to walk the Court through enough
>> of our
>> " > complaint to help the Court understand that IBM clearly did
>> " > contribute a
>> " > lot of the Unix-related information into Linux. We just don't
>> know
>> " > whatit is."
>> " >
>> " > -- Kevin McBride SCO vs. IBM 12/05/03
>> " >
>> "
>> "
>>
>> --
>>
>> "Yes, Your Honor. Now, where we are so far, in at least my
>> line of reasoning, is I want to walk the Court through enough of our
>> complaint to help the Court understand that IBM clearly did
>> contribute a
>> lot of the Unix-related information into Linux. We just don't know
>> whatit is."
>>
>> -- Kevin McBride SCO vs. IBM 12/05/03
>>
>
>____________________________
>NYLXS: New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
>Fair Use -
>because it's either fair use or useless....
>NYLXS is a trademark of NYLXS, Inc
>____________________________
>NYLXS: New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
>Fair Use -
>because it's either fair use or useless....
>NYLXS is a trademark of NYLXS, Inc
____________________________
NYLXS: New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
Fair Use -
because it's either fair use or useless....
NYLXS is a trademark of NYLXS, Inc
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