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DATE 2004-01-01

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Key: Value:

Key: Value:

MESSAGE
DATE 2004-01-04
FROM From: "Ray C."
SUBJECT Subject: [hangout] Software Services Opportunities

Large Software Customers Refuse to Get With the Program
Some Corporate Buyers Start To Resist Forced Upgrades,
Higher Maintenance Fees

By KEVIN J. DELANEY and DAVID BANK
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

Fluor Corp. has joined a growing revolt against the software industry.

The engineering and construction giant had so many problems installing
software from one of its biggest suppliers, SAP AG of Germany, that Fluor
ditched parts of the products it had licensed, replaced its own chief
information officer and took a $13 million charge. Then SAP said it would
soon stop providing standard technical support for the software -- meaning
Fluor, based in Aliso Viejo, Calif., would have to install a new version or
pay even higher annual fees to get updates, fixes for bugs and access to
SAP's technicians.

Fluor's response: In late 2002 its new CIO, Ray Barnard, suspended monthly
maintenance payments to SAP, which already totaled hundreds of thousands of
dollars a year. Then, last February, over a sandwich lunch in San Diego, Mr.
Barnard told SAP CEO Henning Kagermann that the German company had to
overhaul how it charged for software.

After a long slump in corporate technology spending, software buyers have more
power than ever before -- and they're using it to force software makers to
change the way they do business. Some customers are refusing to upgrade and
are demanding their suppliers continue to support old software. Others are
dumping their suppliers and shopping for more-accommodating vendors. Still
others are training their own employees to handle tech support.

After months of negotiations with Fluor, SAP, which was receiving a chorus of
complaints from other big customers about the upgrade, blinked. It cut a deal
on upgrades and other issues with Fluor, which agreed to resume payments.
Shortly after, SAP announced an offer for all its customers: Those who don't
upgrade can receive a lower-level maintenance option for no extra charge.
DOW JONES REPRINTSThis copy is for your personal, non-commercial use only. To
order presentation-ready copies for distribution to your colleagues, clients
or customers, use the Order Reprints tool at the bottom of any article or
visit: www.djreprints.com. • See a sample reprint in PDF format • Order a
reprint of this article now.

An SAP spokeswoman concedes Fluor had "issues" with SAP's software, but says
Fluor's problems were partly linked to its own management changes and to the
external company Fluor hired to help install the SAP system. She says many
customers have been happy to upgrade, and SAP doesn't abandon those who
decide to wait. She also says the new lower-level maintenance offer was
technically available earlier, though few SAP salespeople or customers had
been told about it.

SAP, the leader in the $40 billion market for application software to manage
financial data, manufacturing, customer relations and other activities, is
only the latest vendor to wave a white flag. In 2002, a customer revolt
forced Microsoft Corp. to overhaul its plans for sweeping changes in how it
charges for upgrades. PeopleSoft Inc. this spring extended support for an old
version of its software by an additional nine months; the company also
extended support for software from newly acquired J.D. Edwards & Co. to as
long as six years, from four.

The widespread retreat signals that software companies may no longer be able
to count on boosting the revenue streams that helped them through the
technology downturn. With markets saturated, software companies have tried to
dig deeper into the wallets of existing customers, using a variation on the
"planned obsolescence" U.S. car makers invented in Detroit's tail-fin era.
Car makers designed vehicles that wore out quickly, to ensure replacement
purchases.

Since software doesn't wear out, software makers set timetables for phasing
out programs. Just when big clients work out the kinks in complex software
systems, the software companies tell them they need to install new versions.
This gives software companies a chance to impose fresh licensing fees and a
big chance to sell existing customers on new features, usually unavailable
for older versions.

Sometimes software companies provide upgrades free, generating additional
revenue by selling users on new add-ons or increasing maintenance fees. These
fees have crept up to as much as 22% or even 25% of the original license fee,
from about 15% a few years ago. For example, a company that paid Oracle Corp.
its standard licensing fee of $3,995 per user for its "e-business" suite of
business-software applications would also pay an annual fee of $599 for
software updates and $280 for product support, or 22% of the license fee.

Some software companies now get the majority of their profits from such
recurring revenue, with original license fees serving as an introductory loss
leader. For SAP, more than four out of every five euros in license revenue
come from a veteran client.

Technical support also becomes a powerful stick for software makers to wield
against customers. If buyers don't want to upgrade, software makers can raise
the fees for supporting the old product, or yank support for it altogether.
The latter move also saves software companies a bundle, by shifting support
personnel from old products to current ones.

"We all do it," says Oracle CEO Larry Ellison. "If we have too many old
versions, that moves engineers from working on a new product to working on a
seven-year-old product."

When times were good and technology was advancing rapidly, customers accepted
the forced upgrades as a fact of corporate life. Now customers aren't
swallowing it. "Most of us don't buy it anymore," says Fluor's Mr. Barnard,
who plans to wait until at least 2005 to upgrade the company's SAP system.

Some software customers have left their suppliers and defected to rivals. In
2000, French fax-and-messaging software company Esker SA installed a
customer-management system from Siebel Systems for use by 165 employees.
Siebel dropped regular support, which includes updates and technical help,
for the version Esker was using in June -- but offered to extend that support
for about $94,000 a year, or 50% more than the original price. The upgrade
itself would have been free, but Jean-Michel Berard, Esker chief executive,
estimated that additional hardware, consultants and training would have cost
another $175,000, not including Esker's own staff time.

"In the '90s or 2000, it was a practice that was accepted, because companies
were rich, or thought they were," Mr. Berard says. "That's no longer the
case."

Esker dropped Siebel and switched to Salesforce.com, a Siebel competitor that
runs software systems on its own computers, freeing customers from upgrade
worries. Clients use the Internet to connect to Salesforce.com's computers.

A Siebel spokesman says Esker is trying to make Siebel look bad because Siebel
rebuffed its 2000 request to partner up in selling its fax software, a charge
Mr. Berard denies.

The threat of dropped support also spurred the Los Angeles County Museum of
Art to switch software suppliers. For four years, the museum had used a
PeopleSoft offering to prepare its general ledger, accounts payable, accounts
receivable and other reports. In 2002, PeopleSoft gave the museum a year's
notice that it was ending support at the current price for version 7 of the
software and encouraged an upgrade to version 8.

"It's not prudent to run software without support," says Ann Rowland, the
museum's chief financial officer, who oversees information technology as part
of managing the museum's $40 million operating budget. Ms. Rowland held
discussions with PeopleSoft, seeking a cut in the price increase for product
support, but "we didn't see any concessions," she says. In July, the museum
switched from PeopleSoft's financial-accounting software to archrival
Oracle's. A few months later -- too late for the museum -- PeopleSoft
extended its support offer.

PeopleSoft said in a statement that its support policy is the "longest and
most comprehensive" in the industry, but it limits support for older versions
because most customers "prefer to see PeopleSoft invest in research and
development for future releases."

Some customers are happy to upgrade. The recent versions of most business
applications, for example, allow better Web access to company data than
previously possible. Dow Corning Corp. plans to finish upgrading in 2005 an
SAP software system it installed for $100 million in 1999 and which is used
by more than 8,000 staffers. CIO Abbe Mulders says the upgrade, which should
take six months and cost several million dollars, will be worth it for the
Midland, Mich., maker of silicon-based products, partly by making it easier
to serve customers over the Web.

But even Dow Corning, which SAP cited as an example of its good relations with
users, says the German company has to soften its demands. Ms. Mulders says
Dow Corning wouldn't be able to upgrade by SAP's deadline at the end of
December 2003 -- and is still negotiating the extra maintenance fees that SAP
wants to impose to provide full support in the interim.

Geoff Penney, chief information officer for Charles Schwab Corp., says he's
happy to install upgrades from Siebel and others, as long as the pain of an
upgrade is outweighed by the value of the innovation. "It only becomes an
issue when that stops, or when they're producing stuff we don't want," he
says.

That's the problem. Many companies say the systems they installed in the 1990s
are still up to the task and they can't make a business case for the hassles
of installing a new version or adding on the latest bells and whistles. A
J.P. Morgan survey of SAP users published last year found that only 28% of
the companies polled believed SAP's latest version "delivered value" over
what they already are using. An additional 19% said it "partly delivered
value."

Just weeks before SAP toned down its upgrade campaign, SAP executives insisted
few customers had complained about the plan to boost fees. Mr. Kagermann, the
chief executive, said increasing maintenance fees to 19% of the original
license cost, from 17%, for those who don't upgrade was reasonable. "We
cannot maintain mainstream maintenance" for older software that fewer and
fewer clients use, Mr. Kagermann said at a conference in Paris in late
September.

But in Sept. 26 e-mail to staff outlining SAP's softened policy, Mr. Kagermann
acknowledged that customers had pushed back. He stressed the importance of
"safeguarding" maintenance revenue, which represents one-third of SAP's sales
and "has become increasingly important."

Customers are pushing back against other software vendors as well. A survey by
Goldman Sachs in August found that more than half of respondents had
renegotiated their maintenance contracts for 2003. Nearly one in five cut
their bills more than 15%.

Some companies are shifting to Linux and other open-source software, in which
bug fixes and upgrades can be downloaded free. Linux customers aren't immune
from pressure, though: Red Hat Inc. will stop providing updates for its
original version of Linux in April 2004, partly to spur upgrades to a new
edition that includes updates and product support -- and costs more.

Other customers try supporting the software on their own. That's what
Electronics for Imaging Inc. of Foster City, Calif., did in 2002 after
support expired on its PeopleSoft human-resources software. The 1,000-person
digital-printing company pocketed the $300,000 to $400,000 it would have
spent on an upgrade and had its own tech staff field any problems with the
software. It is considering switching to SAP's HR software, but says the
expense involved means any such move could take some time.

Some software companies are responding to the revolt by trying to make their
applications faster and cheaper. Siebel has launched an "on demand" service,
similar to Salesforce.com's, in which customers tap into applications run by
Siebel at centralized data centers and pay a monthly fee for just the
software they use, rather than spend millions of dollars on risky
installations.

Fluor's Mr. Barnard and some fellow clients are pushing SAP to let them pay
monthly service fees for only the software they need. But he doesn't expect
bruising battles this year over upgrade deadlines. "I hope not," says Mr.
Barnard. "Based on the way SAP has begun responding this year, I think we can
work through that."

Write to Kevin J. Delaney at kevin.delaney-at-wsj.com1 and David Bank at
david.bank-at-wsj.com2

--
At times the discrepancy between institutions and technology becomes an
incompatibility, and then one or the other must give way.
-Allen Wheelis


____________________________
NYLXS: New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
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because it's either fair use or useless....
NYLXS is a trademark of NYLXS, Inc

  1. 2004-01-29 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] morning plans
  2. 2004-01-29 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Lake Placid
  3. 2004-01-29 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] morning plans
  4. 2004-01-29 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Lake Placid
  5. 2004-01-29 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Lake Placid
  6. 2004-01-29 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [hangout] Ride back from Lake Placid needed on Sunday
  7. 2004-01-29 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] A New Dawn is Arisin'
  8. 2004-01-29 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [ten-at-gnome.org: Re[2]: Kings Games]
  9. 2004-01-29 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] A New Dawn is Arisin'
  10. 2004-01-28 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Ride back from Lake Placid needed on Sunday
  11. 2004-01-28 Peter Siegel <psiegel-at-copper.net> Subject: [hangout] Ride back from Lake Placid needed on Sunday
  12. 2004-01-28 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Another response to Jay
  13. 2004-01-28 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Another response to Jay
  14. 2004-01-27 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] travel plans
  15. 2004-01-27 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] NYLXS Retreat to Lake Placid
  16. 2004-01-27 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Another response to Jay
  17. 2004-01-27 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Another response to Jay
  18. 2004-01-27 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] Another response to Jay
  19. 2004-01-27 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Another response to Jay
  20. 2004-01-27 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] NYLXS Retreat to Lake Placid
  21. 2004-01-27 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: RE: [hangout] travel plans
  22. 2004-01-27 David Sugar <dyfet-at-ostel.com> Re: [hangout] travel plans
  23. 2004-01-27 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] travel plans
  24. 2004-01-27 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [hangout] travel plans
  25. 2004-01-27 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [hangout] travel plans
  26. 2004-01-27 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Upcoming New York City Council Technology in Government Hearings.
  27. 2004-01-27 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] [OT] RMS talk in India
  28. 2004-01-27 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [freedom-it] Freedom-IT Expo Plans
  29. 2004-01-26 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Fixed the boot problem on my G4
  30. 2004-01-26 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Subject: [hangout] Fixed the boot problem on my G4
  31. 2004-01-26 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] travel plans
  32. 2004-01-26 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: on iwon.com news
  33. 2004-01-26 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] NYLXS Retreat to Lake Placid
  34. 2004-01-26 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] What are Bayesain spam filters? and Re: [wwwac] The End of Spam as
  35. 2004-01-26 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Another response to Jay
  36. 2004-01-26 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Response to Jay
  37. 2004-01-25 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Freedom-IT Expo Plans
  38. 2004-01-25 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] LWE Replacement meeting today
  39. 2004-01-25 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] LWE Replacement meeting today
  40. 2004-01-25 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] City Council Contacts
  41. 2004-01-25 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] LWE Replacement meeting today
  42. 2004-01-24 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] City Council Contacts
  43. 2004-01-24 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] LWE Replacement meeting today
  44. 2004-01-24 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] Coble Bill, making FACTS "Intellectual Property", passed by committee!
  45. 2004-01-24 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Technite
  46. 2004-01-24 Steve Milo <slavik914-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Technite?
  47. 2004-01-24 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] NYLXS Retreat to Lake Placid
  48. 2004-01-23 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> Subject: [hangout] van
  49. 2004-01-23 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Subject: [hangout] Things to do on closing day for LWE.
  50. 2004-01-22 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] NYLXS Retreat to Lake Placid
  51. 2004-01-22 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] bring a baby to the expo
  52. 2004-01-22 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] NYLXS Retreat to Lake Placid
  53. 2004-01-21 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] NYLXS Retreat to Lake Placid
  54. 2004-01-21 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Novel Meeting
  55. 2004-01-21 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] NYLXS Retreat to Lake Placid
  56. 2004-01-20 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Wow - time passses ....
  57. 2004-01-20 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Wow - time passses ....
  58. 2004-01-20 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] NYLXS Retreat to Lake Placid
  59. 2004-01-20 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  60. 2004-01-20 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: RE: [hangout] Lake Placid Driving Directions
  61. 2004-01-20 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  62. 2004-01-20 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: RE: [hangout] Lake Placid Driving Directions
  63. 2004-01-20 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Lodging in Lake Placid
  64. 2004-01-20 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Re: [wwwac] Tuesday 20 January through Friday 23 January, 2004: Perl, LWE, K. Knopper at NYLUG, Gale Brewer at BOF, Howard Elmer at MuSIG
  65. 2004-01-20 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  66. 2004-01-20 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] Lake Placid Driving Directions
  67. 2004-01-20 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Board Meeting Minutes
  68. 2004-01-20 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Board Meeting Minutes
  69. 2004-01-20 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Lodging in Lake Placid
  70. 2004-01-20 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Lake Placid Driving Directions
  71. 2004-01-20 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  72. 2004-01-20 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Business Cards
  73. 2004-01-20 Joe Villari <joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com> Re: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  74. 2004-01-20 Joe Villari <joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com> Re: [hangout] Lodging in Lake Placid
  75. 2004-01-20 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [wwwac] Tuesday 20 January through Friday 23 January, 2004: Perl, LWE, K. Knopper at NYLUG, Gale Brewer at BOF, Howard Elmer at MuSIG
  76. 2004-01-20 Joe Villari <joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com> Re: [hangout] Lodging in Lake Placid
  77. 2004-01-20 Joe Villari <joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com> Re: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  78. 2004-01-20 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  79. 2004-01-20 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Board Meeting Minutes
  80. 2004-01-19 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  81. 2004-01-19 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  82. 2004-01-19 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  83. 2004-01-19 Joe Villari <joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com> Re: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  84. 2004-01-19 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  85. 2004-01-19 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  86. 2004-01-19 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  87. 2004-01-18 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Tomorrows Board Meeting
  88. 2004-01-18 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Tomorrows Board Meeting
  89. 2004-01-18 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Tomorrows Board Meeting
  90. 2004-01-18 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  91. 2004-01-18 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  92. 2004-01-17 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Flame war
  93. 2004-01-17 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] tech night
  94. 2004-01-17 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <rob-at-concord.altschools.org> Re: [hangout] tech night
  95. 2004-01-17 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] tech night
  96. 2004-01-17 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] tech night
  97. 2004-01-17 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Flame war
  98. 2004-01-17 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] leeches=$(diff Free_Software Open_Source)
  99. 2004-01-17 Peter Siegel <psiegel-at-copper.net> Subject: [hangout] Flame war
  100. 2004-01-17 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Subject: [hangout] Selfishness...
  101. 2004-01-17 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] leeches=$(diff Free_Software Open_Source)
  102. 2004-01-17 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] leeches=$(diff Free_Software Open_Source)
  103. 2004-01-16 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: Fwd: Web Hosting
  104. 2004-01-16 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  105. 2004-01-16 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  106. 2004-01-16 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  107. 2004-01-16 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Keep it civil
  108. 2004-01-16 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  109. 2004-01-16 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [jobs-admin-at-perl.org: [Perl Jobs] LDAP/Perl Expert-NJ Consulting Firm, United States, NJ, Bedminster]
  110. 2004-01-16 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [cudye-at-novell.com: NYC Event - Novell/SUSE/Ximian Presentation on Linux Initiatives]
  111. 2004-01-16 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] wireless access near javitts?
  112. 2004-01-16 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  113. 2004-01-16 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Why couldn't the Expo Overlap with a weekend?
  114. 2004-01-16 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] Why couldn't the Expo Overlap with a weekend?
  115. 2004-01-16 From: "John Mullen" <john-at-mullensystems.com> Subject: [hangout] Why couldn't the Expo Overlap with a weekend?
  116. 2004-01-16 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] wireless access near javitts?
  117. 2004-01-16 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  118. 2004-01-16 Joe Grastara <jfg205-at-nyu.edu> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  119. 2004-01-16 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  120. 2004-01-16 psiegel-at-copper.net Subject: [hangout] Keep it civil
  121. 2004-01-16 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  122. 2004-01-16 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  123. 2004-01-16 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  124. 2004-01-16 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  125. 2004-01-16 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  126. 2004-01-16 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  127. 2004-01-16 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  128. 2004-01-16 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  129. 2004-01-16 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  130. 2004-01-16 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  131. 2004-01-16 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  132. 2004-01-16 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  133. 2004-01-16 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  134. 2004-01-16 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  135. 2004-01-16 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  136. 2004-01-16 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  137. 2004-01-16 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  138. 2004-01-16 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  139. 2004-01-15 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] [TechForum] re: Tech Position at EBC
  140. 2004-01-15 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] [TechForum] re: Tech Position at EBC
  141. 2004-01-15 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: [suse-security-announce] SUSE Security Announcement: Linux Kernel (SuSE-SA:2004:003) [thomas-at-suse.de]
  142. 2004-01-15 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  143. 2004-01-15 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Fwd: [Perl Jobs] Software Developer/Consultant (Perl/Unix/Sybase) (onsite), United States, NY, New York City [jobs-admin-at-perl.org]
  144. 2004-01-15 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  145. 2004-01-15 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Board Meeting
  146. 2004-01-14 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: Does Dell Support Linux? - MozillaQuest Magazine - Page 3 [wanderson-at-nac.net]
  147. 2004-01-14 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: [EmperorLinux-Announce] See Linux Laptops with 54mbps 802.11g and swsusp at LWE [lincoln-at-EmperorLinux.com]
  148. 2004-01-14 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: [Perl Jobs] Software Developer/Consultant (Perl/Unix/Sybase) (onsite), United States, NY, New York City [jobs-admin-at-perl.org]
  149. 2004-01-14 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] [TechForum] re: Tech Position at EBC
  150. 2004-01-14 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] movie
  151. 2004-01-14 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> Subject: [hangout] movie
  152. 2004-01-14 From: "P. Robert Marino" <rob-at-concord.altschools.org> Subject: [hangout] [TechForum] re: Tech Position at EBC
  153. 2004-01-14 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Board Meeting
  154. 2004-01-14 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Non FOSS and Fedora
  155. 2004-01-13 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Classes Given by Fund for the City of New York
  156. 2004-01-13 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Classes Given by Fund for the City of New York
  157. 2004-01-13 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: [Perl Jobs] Project Leader - Production Support (onsite), United States, New York, New York City [jobs-admin-at-perl.org]
  158. 2004-01-13 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: [Perl Jobs] Perl Production Support (onsite), United States, NY, New York City [jobs-admin-at-perl.org]
  159. 2004-01-13 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: [Perl Jobs] Required PERL Expert for Lehman Brothers (onsite), United States, New York, New York City [jobs-admin-at-perl.org]
  160. 2004-01-13 From: "John Mullen" <john-at-mullensystems.com> Re: [hangout] re: review: SUSE 9.0
  161. 2004-01-13 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Non FOSS and Fedora
  162. 2004-01-13 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] re: review: SUSE 9.0
  163. 2004-01-13 From: "M. Halegua" <phantom21-at-mindspring.com> Subject: [hangout] re: review: SUSE 9.0
  164. 2004-01-12 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Subject: [hangout] Non-Profit status.
  165. 2004-01-12 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: Estimate
  166. 2004-01-12 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Non FOSS and Fedora
  167. 2004-01-12 akbar <akbar-at-jaal.org> Re: [hangout] Non FOSS and Fedora
  168. 2004-01-12 From: <akbar-at-jaal.org> Subject: [hangout] on craigslist a project opportunity
  169. 2004-01-12 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: Adobe software on fedora?
  170. 2004-01-12 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: Tuesday 13 January 2004 Lisp NYC: Meet and Eat and Drink at Blondies on the Island of the Manahattoes (fwd)
  171. 2004-01-12 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] Non FOSS and Fedora
  172. 2004-01-12 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] (fwd) Re: [tech-geeks] XP Home in Win2K Domain
  173. 2004-01-12 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Span Can Do bill?
  174. 2004-01-11 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] technight
  175. 2004-01-11 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Abode Photospho FBI Hooks
  176. 2004-01-11 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Happy Hacking
  177. 2004-01-11 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] technight
  178. 2004-01-11 akbar <akbar-at-jaal.org> Subject: [hangout] (OT) The State of Perl
  179. 2004-01-11 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [tech-geeks] XP Home in Win2K Domain
  180. 2004-01-10 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> iRe: [hangout] technight
  181. 2004-01-10 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] technight
  182. 2004-01-10 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] FYI: Novell Unveils Ximian Desktop Update For SUSE Linux 9
  183. 2004-01-10 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] technight
  184. 2004-01-10 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [tech-geeks] 8th grader suspended for using "net send"
  185. 2004-01-10 Steve Milo <slavik914-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [NMLUG] Re: Better than Knoppix (fwd)
  186. 2004-01-10 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] technight
  187. 2004-01-09 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [jobs-admin-at-perl.org: [Perl Jobs] modperl ecommerce template programmer (telecommute), United States, PA, Philadelphia]
  188. 2004-01-07 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] 64bit MYSQL
  189. 2004-01-07 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Subject: [hangout] Technite.
  190. 2004-01-07 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: RE: [hangout] Liquidator: 6,500 tech firms among 'walking dead'
  191. 2004-01-07 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] 64bit MYSQL
  192. 2004-01-07 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Liquidator: 6,500 tech firms among 'walking dead'
  193. 2004-01-06 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] FSF Seminars Explaining the GPL in NYC January 20, 21
  194. 2004-01-06 akbar <akbar-at-jaal.org> Subject: [hangout] FYI: Novell Unveils Ximian Desktop Update For SUSE Linux 9
  195. 2004-01-06 From: <akbar-at-jaal.org> Subject: [hangout] FSF Seminars Explaining the GPL in NYC January 20, 21
  196. 2004-01-06 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [ Free Software Chamber of Commerce ] Free Software Cost anal ysis by Microsoft
  197. 2004-01-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Woops -
  198. 2004-01-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Free Software Cost analysis by Microsoft
  199. 2004-01-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Novell - The Free SOftware Alternative
  200. 2004-01-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: Applied Data Systems (ADS) Single Board Computers fu [fsalloum-at-applieddata.net]
  201. 2004-01-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] 64bit MYSQL
  202. 2004-01-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [fairuse] Copyright Lawsuite against the RIAA
  203. 2004-01-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [fairuse] Copyright Lawsuite against the RIAA
  204. 2004-01-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Copyright Lawsuite against the RIAA
  205. 2004-01-06 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] I will be away for a few months...and looking for help in ICT policy
  206. 2004-01-06 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] I will be away for a few months...and looking for help in ICT policy
  207. 2004-01-06 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [nat-at-ximian.com: Re: Summit wiki.]
  208. 2004-01-05 David Sugar <dyfet-at-ostel.com> Subject: [hangout] hostile corps, wdl?!
  209. 2004-01-05 David Sugar <dyfet-at-ostel.com> Re: [hangout] I will be away for a few months...and looking for help in ICT policy
  210. 2004-01-05 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] test
  211. 2004-01-05 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] I will be away for a few months...and looking for help in ICT policy
  212. 2004-01-05 David Sugar <dyfet-at-ostel.com> Subject: [hangout] I will be away for a few months...and looking for help in ICT policy
  213. 2004-01-05 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] I will be away for a few months...and looking for help in ICT policy
  214. 2004-01-05 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] 501c status.
  215. 2004-01-05 Spidey309-at-aol.com Re: [hangout] Librarian
  216. 2004-01-04 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Librarian
  217. 2004-01-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] test
  218. 2004-01-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: [Users] ANNOUNCE: Openswan 1.0.0 Released [ken-at-xelerance.com]
  219. 2004-01-04 From: "Ray C." <ray-pub-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] Software Services Opportunities
  220. 2004-01-04 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] New Toys
  221. 2004-01-03 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Subject: [hangout] 501c status.
  222. 2004-01-03 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.com> Re: [hangout] Lake Placid Retreat the last weekend of January
  223. 2004-01-02 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Lake Placid Retreat the last weekend of January
  224. 2004-01-29 From: "P. Robert Marino" <rob-at-concord.altschools.org> Subject: [hangout] Lake Placid
  225. 2004-01-27 From: <akbar-at-jaal.org> Re: [hangout] [OT] RMS talk in India
  226. 2004-01-26 akbar <akbar-at-jaal.org> Subject: [hangout] [OT] RMS talk in India
  227. 2004-01-20 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] IBM denies moving to desktop Linux by 2005
  228. 2004-01-19 akbar <akbar-at-jaal.org> Subject: [hangout] how did we miss this?
  229. 2004-01-18 akbar <akbar-at-jaal.org> Re: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  230. 2004-01-18 akbar <akbar-at-jaal.org> Subject: [hangout] possible talk topics at the retreat?
  231. 2004-01-18 akbar <akbar-at-jaal.org> Subject: [hangout] Top 10 Open Source Tools for eActivism
  232. 2004-01-16 From: "P. Robert Marino" <rob-at-concord.altschools.org> Subject: [hangout] [TechForum] Fwd: Open Source Library Presentation
  233. 2004-01-16 From: <akbar-at-jaal.org> RE: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  234. 2004-01-16 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Re: ogg tutorial
  235. 2004-01-15 From: "P. Robert Marino" <rob-at-concord.altschools.org> Re: [hangout] [TechForum] re: Tech Position at EBC
  236. 2004-01-14 akbar <akbar-at-jaal.org> Re: [hangout] [TechForum] re: Tech Position at EBC
  237. 2004-01-20 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [DMCA_Discuss] DotGNU in Software Development Times
  238. 2004-01-20 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [DMCA_Discuss] Has RealNetworks Violated the DMCA?

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