MESSAGE
| DATE | 2002-11-01 |
| FROM | David Sugar
|
| SUBJECT | Re: [hangout] IBM and Linux - For Future Reference
|
On 1 Nov 2002, Ruben Safir wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2001-11-23 at 14:49, hangout-at-nylxs.com wrote:
> >
> > >>If the objective is to make free software widely accessible and a common
> > >>alternative to proprietary systems,
> >
> > Yes
Calling it an alternative is not I believe correct. All software should
be provided with freedom to use and modify as one sees fit, not as an
option. Saying free software is an alternative or option to proprietary
software implies proprietary software is ethically equivilent. Would one
claim that a one party state without elections is ethically equivillent to
the alternative or option of democratic government?
> > >> the open source/free community has
> > >>to accept help from whatever sources it can.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with accepting help from others, just as
we share code with others, so long as this help doesn't require us to
deminish the freedom we provide to others or for us to promote their
proprietary solutions. Certainly cooperation can and must exist where
there are common goals.
> > Maybe. Giving out code is not the same as helping schools.
> >
> > >>Yes, IBM is a big ugly
> > >>corporation. Yes, if IBM could patent air and bill you for it, it would.
> >
> > That's right. And it's not point to be overlooked or simply brushed aside.
> > Whatever they contribute, fine. This is not a reason to sleep with a Polar
> > Bear.
> >
> >
> > >>This being said, IBM can't beat the GPL (or at least has shown no
> > >>inclination to do so yet)
> >
> > It probibly could if it wanted to, but this is not the focis of this
> > discussion.
> >
> >
> > >> and it has things we lack, specifically money,
> > >>money, and more money.
> >
> > AH
> >
> > Now this is the point I wanted to get to.
> >
> > It's really not true that we don't have money. We have as much money as we
> > care to donate, and spend, as a community. The community DOES have money.
> >
> >
> > Furthermore, and money which is donated to any cause needs to be carefully
> > examined for strings attached. And money is not the same as equiptment.
> > If IBM wanted to donate to NYLXS, for example, 2 million dollars for the
> > purposes of supporting our educational initiative. We would look to make
> > sure it had no strings attached. If it had no strings, we would accept it.
I believe this is a completely correct and valid viewpoint.
> > If they wanted to donate an s390 to NYLXS, they could keep it. We have no
> > use for it without an infalstructure to maintain it.
> >
> > If they donate VM's, as they are, I currenty have no use for that either,
> > and it completely is useless to helping the free software agenda in the
> > schools. If they want to donate an actually s390, then that MIGHT be
> > useful, but not likely. What would be more useful would be
> > an open check. If they are interested in promoting FS in the schools, let
> > them cut a damn check so the Clubs and Faculty can buy what they need to
> > use FS as they see fit in the school. Second best is to donate a few PC's
> > and a PC server, with other equiptment (hubs etc), if they wanted to. If
> > they can help support new connectivity, that would also be good.
> >
> >
> > Next best would be for them to help with faculty and tech support. Let
> > them get their people in there on IMB time and money, 2x a week.
> >
> > But forcing a marketing solution on them is completely NOT of any use, and
> > can be harmful, period...regardless of the money involved.
> >
> >
> > There is also the danger of becoming too dependent of IBM. That is a
> > disaster. The NY Linux Scene needs to develope the means to handle
> > community needs on it's own without being dependent on IBM. We, as a
> > community, DO have the money, time, and VOTES necessary to do the needed
> > outreach and devlepment. What we don't have is focus and organization.
> > And gawking at IBM is not helping.
> >
> >
> > >> I don't know the same teachers you
> > >>know, but the ones I have met are not teachers because of an abiding
> > >>passion for technology--they want to teach kids, they need computers to
> > >>do it,
> >
> > That's a good question. Really they don't need computers to teach kids.
> > They need computers to teach kids about computers. In any event, this is
> > where the COMMUNITY needs to get off it's duff and work. This is just
> > plain old fashion, roll up your sleaves, and contribute to your community
> > work. We have the talent to get into this school, and others, and to
> > donate a few hurs a week to make the schools a better place for learning,
> > and teaching of the power of freedom and free software. In fact, we can
> > probibly put more people into the field than IBM. Let IBM support US in
> > our lead to help the school, if they choose to help at all.
> >
> > >> and they really don't care whose OS or hardware they use as long
> > >>as they get the machines in their classrooms, running, and with the
> > >>training and support they need to make those computers go.
> >
> > And that, my friend, is a fatal misconception and huge problem. They DON'T
> > want to just get computers into the school. They want to expand their kids
> > horizons. Many object to computers in the schools at all, not to mention
> > calculators. We need to show how FS expands on the basic ability to teach
> > children, not how to use word processors, but how to THINK, DEDUCE, CREATE,
> > and LEARN. We need to show how this huge library of computing software
> > teaches instruction, and trains the mind to problem solve and communicate.
> > THAT is the power of free software in the school system. It expands the
> > oppurtunity of child to develop real world skills which they will use every
> > day of their life, even, G-D forbid, if one day they need to take a job
> > using Microsoft's yet unmamed Word Processor.
> >
> > >>
> > >>Last week Microsoft announced a settlement agreement that gives schools
> > >>free computers, and also provides $90 million in teacher training and
> > >>$160 million in technical support. While it's easy to question the
> > >>altruism of these settlement terms,
> >
> >
> > It's not the altruism in question. If you read the articles by the
> > Attorneys rejecting the offer, they're rejecting it on grounds that the
> > introduction of MORE MS products into the schools is harmful to the kids!!
> >
> > And they're RIGHT.
> >
> > >>Why would any school
> > >>board or school administrator turn up the opportunity to get free (as in
> > >>beer) new computers, software, training, and support in favor of a bunch
> > >>of hobbyists nattering about Free (as in speech) software, bearing a
> > >>hodgepodge of old machines they sorta cobbled together from old parts
> > >>dug out of the basement, and training and support that they can provide
> > >>kinda on their off hours?
> >
> >
> > Because this is not the real choice. The real choice is, why would they
> > turn down free computers and software to their schools which restrict their
> > teaching ability and obstruct their goals. Instead they can have support
> > of an association of expert computer professionals from the community.
> > This is especially true in light of the fact that what the teachers really
> > would prefer is more text books, teaching space and room. Screw the
> > computers. They're not on the SAT's.
> >
> > >>The only way we're
> > >>going to be able to do have a serious presence in the classroom is by
> > >>aligning ourselves with the help and support of corporate giants
> >
> > IMO, this is completely not true. Then were just trading one exploitative
> > solution for another dressed up all nicely in the flag of the GPL. Only
> > the community can make a difference. IBM is irrelavent in this regard
> > accept in it's support of the local computing professionsals in the local
> > FS movement who are working to make it happen.
> >
> >
> > Really, the best thing IBM can do is hire more local Free Software people
> > so that these people can better support their own damn school. They do
> > have educational resources and programs, not to mention other areas of
> > employment, which can put more FS people to work.
> >
> > let em hire Jay...
> >
> > :)
> >
> > Ruben
> >
> >
> > --
> > __________________________
> >
> > Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> > __________________________
> > http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
> > http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn
> > http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
> > http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy
> > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and
> > articles from around the net
> > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/annie.mp3 - Armed and Dangerous....
> > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn....
> >
> > 1-718-382-5752
> >
> >
> >
>
> ____________________________
> New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> Fair Use -
> because it's either fair use or useless....
>
____________________________
New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
Fair Use -
because it's either fair use or useless....
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