MESSAGE
| DATE | 2002-06-10 |
| FROM | Ruben I Safir
|
| SUBJECT | Re: [hangout] I Bid You All Adieu
|
It's a mistake to make the GIMP Photoshop since the Gimp is a better and different product.
Brendan, your procedure for replacing other apps through GNU apps is a
loosing stratergy because it fails to produce innovation. It's a doomed
stratergy for any business model, and has proven so repeatedly.
the gimp IS currently better than Photoshop in about a dozen ways.
It's extending scripting ability and layering is lightyears ahead of photoshop,
and has pushed abode to add Javascript (pueck) as a scripting front end of their
appliccations.
We should just IGNOR current products and focus on solving problems for users
in innovative and new ways. This is what the Gimp does, and it does it well, creating
a superior application to Photoshop. It's really not even close anymore.
Do you want to stay on or do you want off the list?
Ruben
On 2002.06.10 11:21 Brendan W. McAdams wrote:
>
> Here is some sample questions, which in my mind are a start to a project
> of this nature.
>
>
> Looking at an application which we will assume already exists in some
> form on Windows (e.g. a graphics program - the GIMP on linux - closest
> equiv on windows is Photoshop)
>
> 1) What, if any, is the software's analog (Windows equivalent; e.g. If
> a user is coming over to Linux from Windows, and they will use $program
> to replace $analog. $program = GIMP, $analog = Photoshop. $program =
> OpenOffice, $analog = MS Office. $program = Evolution + Ximian
> Connector, $analog = MS Outlook connected to an Exchange server) on
> Windows?
>
> 2) What functionality is required in order to replace the analog fully
> (e.g. what features do we lack or need to add [if starting from scratch]
> in order to make it worth while to use $program over $analog)?
>
> 3) File Formats. Can we fully support the file format of $analog, even
> if it's only to read it and save it in our own internal format? If no,
> why not? Should we?
>
> 4) Usability. How easy is $program to use compared to $analog.
> Remember, we're trying to entice people who aren't necessarily computer
> pros into using Linux and $program. How easy will the transition be for
> them? What can we do to make it easier? UI Design isn't easy,
> admittedly.
>
> 5) Transitional Help. Do we have documents so that a user who knows
> $analog can use $program easily? MS Word has shipped, for as long as I
> can remember, with a help menu item called "Help for Wordperfect Users";
> this is the kind of thing we need.
>
> 6) Are there other -at-programs in this segment trying to duplicate
> $analog? Is it worth merging programs, or taking features from
> $programs[$i] to enhance $program ? Collaboration is a good thing!
>
> 7) Are the right developers working on the project? What kind of people
> do we need to accomplish our task?
>
> 8) In a broad sense, what is still lacking to make $program comparable
> to $analog?
>
> I think this covers a good initial set of 'questions' to use.
>
> Personally, I would love to get a replacement for Visio and Project on
> my Linux desktop that have compatible file formats with their analogs.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> As far as GNU/Linux goes; the reasons for it are silly and, rather
> self centered. The GNU people are just leveraging credit to help
> promote Stallman's overinflated sense of self worth. He should have
> been locked away long ago, when he released EMACS into the world to
> start its reign of terror =) The fact of the matter is that it's Linux.
> While Linux does technically describe only the kernel, it's inane to
> call it GNU/Linux.
>
> Or should I call it
> Microsoft/Borland/Symantec/Adaptec/Adobe/Apple/Real/AOL-Netscape/Windows
> XP to pay tribute to all the software I've got installed on my machine
> at home? =)
>
> And I won't start on how evil the GPL is...
>
> But enough ranting ... I'm rather hypocritical when I get started on a
> topic like this (not that it's stopped me before).
>
> On Mon, 2002-06-10 at 10:40, Michael Richardson wrote:
> > I was not aware that the G phrase was one of your buttons. Would you
> > consider writing a list of questions that a "Code Enhancement Group" would
> > be looking at? It could be posted as a questionnaire in this issue of the
> > Journal.
> > I have not written code. Nor have I used the GIMP or PhotoShop. And yes I
> > still use windows for a couple of programs, I will use propriety programs
> > for myself. When I do the Journal I will use free software.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brendan W. McAdams [mailto:rit-at-jacked-in.org]
> > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:22 AM
> > To: Michael Richardson
> > Cc: hangout-at-nylxs.com
> > Subject: RE: [hangout] I Bid You All Adieu
> >
> >
> > [It seems my 'unsubscribe' hasn't yet gone through, and since someone is
> > actually willing to have a conversation about this, I don't see why we
> > should cut the thread off before it begins.]
> >
> > Please excuse me while I refuse to call it GNU/Linux. =) It seems
> > someone found the button to push to set me off
> >
> > A voice of reason is, of course, an important thing. However, I fear to
> > hear my voice becoming anything but reasonable in conversations I have
> > on this list as frustration mounts due to people just not taking a hint.
> >
> > I'm not sure if I quite got my point across with the growing up issue.
> >
> > I agree, we have to move forward. The problem I see however is people
> > doing things like insisting it's done, ship it, no more work. Or
> > insisting, for example, The GIMP is just as good as Photoshop. It
> > simply isn't true. Usability, functionality, features etc. Yes, Perl
> > scripting is wonderful but how often do you automate graphics work with
> > an external program rather than doing it by hand? I won't go into a
> > long list of comparative rants as I think I've done so in the past.
> >
> > What NYLXS needs, because I don't think any other group has it, is the
> > ability as a group to analyze where shortcomings are, and FIX THEM.
> >
> > I hereby propose the formation of a Steering Committee to solicit a
> > feasibility study on the creation of a "Code Enhancement Group".
> >
> > The way I see it, what is needed is someone out there looking at the
> > free, open source Unix based products and seeing what is missing. At
> > bringing products that we use on windows over to *nix (As shitty a
> > product as MS Project is, I still need it for work, as do a lot of
> > people. And I have yet to find a program even close to Visio - it seems
> > like development on Dia has stopped). At increasing the usability and
> > friendliness of the system for the average user. At enhancing the
> > overall system that we call Linux. Ximian is doing a great job of this
> > - Evolution is a phenomenal product - it is the BIG reason I was able to
> > do dump Windows at work. But why does it take commercial entities to
> > provide these things we need? I support Ximian with my time (beta
> > testing) and my dollars because they are giving back to me the
> > applications I need - things that make my life worth living (when you
> > code as much as I do, you don't have much to live for ). Can NYLXS
> > or any other group out there offer me the same thing?
> >
> > I'm willing to be a voice of reason, to some level, if people are
> > willing to listen to reason. I can be just as strong willed as everyone
> > else here but I think I have a good idea of when to back down on an
> > issue.
> >
> > Should anyone else be willing to consider these things in a reasonable
> > manner as Michael apparently has, I would be willing to discuss it.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 2002-06-10 at 10:12, Michael Richardson wrote:
> > > Brendan, while you maybe beating your head against the wall, NYLXS needs a
> > > voice of reason. NYLXS can not learn or grow if everyone thinks alike.
> > Yes
> > > it is hard and tiring to fight up hill but don't quit NYLXS needs you more
> > > than you need NYLXS.
> > >
> > > As I understand it NYLXS is not here to write code. However as long as
> > > those who write code for GNU/Linux insist that it is not ready for the
> > > desktop no one will believe it to be. Was Microsoft ready for the desktop
> > > when it launched? GNU/Linux needs to go with what it has on the desktop
> > and
> > > then improve it as it goes.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Brendan W. McAdams [mailto:rit-at-jacked-in.org]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 7:58 AM
> > > To: hangout-at-nylxs.com
> > > Subject: [hangout] I Bid You All Adieu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Due to enormous volume of useless text, and a constant desire to avoid
> > > pontification as much as possible, I am unsubscribing myself from the
> > > list. I can only hope this group, unlike every other LUG, will learn to
> > > temper their views with common sense and acceptance of the views of
> > > others. I have yet to see this from NYLXS and I'm not really holding
> > > out hope anymore.
> > >
> > > While Ruben is a great man, and has a lot to offer the world, he, like
> > > many of you and many others out there (and myself in many regards),
> > > refuses to stand down from his views even when proven wrong. This takes
> > > a lot of personal strength but it does not necessarily indicate a strong
> > > individual. It simply indicates an unyielding mind so hellbent on his
> > > own righteousness that he doesn't realise the effect (or lack thereof)
> > > that he is having on the world around him.
> > >
> > > Politics, infighting and mudslinging only serve to make it easier for
> > > Windows to continue. Linux is still a relatively unusable product on
> > > the desktop. Yet, rather than accept this fact and work to further it,
> > > groups like this try to force Linux down the users throat. Groups like
> > > NYLXS should be putting together Usability Research groups, and putting
> > > together proposals showing shortcomings. These reports should be going
> > > to groups within or without of the organization that actually work on
> > > the apps in question and make them better. Simply wishing for a
> > > replacement to Windows on the desk isn't going to do the job. Linux has
> > > come a long way in the last few years but I have met very few people who
> > > are willing to go that extra mile to get it there. I've offered on so
> > > many occasions to help in this respect, and get told by people "Our
> > > application is perfect!" or something along those lines that is not only
> > > inane but self centered and blind.
> > >
> > > Should NYLXS turn around and being writing code, etc to help meet it's
> > > goals, I would be happy to participate in such groups. A Steering
> > > Committee for said projects would be an excellent beginning.
> > >
> > > Until this time, however, I will take my leave.
> > >
> > > I fully expect that as my views don't match those of NYLXS that I'll be
> > > ripped apart, cursed at, spit upon and insulted for the next few days as
> > > you analyze my message in painstakingly incorrect detail; again,
> > > apparently the norm around here. Have fun.
> > >
> > > It has, as always, been a pleasure.
> > >
> > > If any of you need me, you know how to contact me =)
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Brendan
> > > -----
> > > Brendan W. McAdams
> > > Mobile: (973)517-9919
> > >
> > > "Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why.
> > > Then do it."
> > > - Robert A. Heinlein
> > >
> > > "I cannot make my days longer, so I strive to make them better."
> > > - Henry David Thoreau
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________________________
> > > New Yorker Linux Users Scene
> > > Fair Use -
> > > because it's either fair use or useless....
> >
>
>
> ____________________________
> New Yorker Linux Users Scene
> Fair Use -
> because it's either fair use or useless....
>
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